#1
Intermediate guitarist here. I have memorized and can fluently play the Major, minor pentatonic, and blues scales. What other common scales should I learn next that will be beneficial?
Blues, classical, metal. Who says you cant love all 3?
#3
Do you know them all over the fretboard? Or just in one place? Can you identify the key of a song? Do you know how to use accidentals?

I ask this because once you learn minor and major, and how to use accidentals, you really don't need anything else.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#4
Yeah, doesn't plug in baby use harmonic minor? Think I'm right in saying that..

Mixolydian, melodic minor? Look around, there are plenty :p
#5
Quote by AlanHB
Do you know them all over the fretboard? Or just in one place? Can you identify the key of a song? Do you know how to use accidentals?

I ask this because once you learn minor and major, and how to use accidentals, you really don't need anything else.


This. Knowing a scale ALL OVER the fretboard is a really cool thing to have and does wonders for your playing & writing
#6
Quote by AlanHB
Do you know them all over the fretboard? Or just in one place? Can you identify the key of a song? Do you know how to use accidentals?

I ask this because once you learn minor and major, and how to use accidentals, you really don't need anything else.


yes, no, yes, no

accidentals? i can look up how to apply it if u dont wanna explain it but can i have a quick generalization of what that is so i know what im looking for?
Blues, classical, metal. Who says you cant love all 3?
#7
You don't know what an accidental is, but you know three full scales up and down the fret board?

Wow. That was like one of the very first things I learned when I started learning about scales... I learned what a scale is, then I learned what an accidental is, pretty much Yin and Yang, hotdogs and hamburgers, ketchup and mustard. If you don't have one you can't have the other.

An accidental is the five notes outside of the scale you are using.
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#8
Quote by iancmtaylor
You don't know what an accidental is, but you know three full scales up and down the fret board?

Wow. That was like one of the very first things I learned when I started learning about scales... I learned what a scale is, then I learned what an accidental is, pretty much Yin and Yang, hotdogs and hamburgers, ketchup and mustard. If you don't have one you can't have the other.

An accidental is the five notes outside of the scale you are using.

so like all the notes not in the scale?
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#9
Yup, all the enharmonic notes.
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#10
Quote by ThatDarnDavid
Intermediate guitarist here. I have memorized and can fluently play the Major, minor pentatonic, and blues scales. What other common scales should I learn next that will be beneficial?



Harmonic minor- very easy alteration . just raise the minor 7th in natural minor scale to a major 7th. The phrygian dominant scale is also found within the Harmonic minor as well which has a pretty cool sound.
#11
Quote by iancmtaylor
Yup, all the enharmonic notes.



You do know what an enharmonic note is, right?
#13
looking up the A minor scale to learn, based on advice from this thread, I noticed its the same notes as the C major scale. Whats up with that? Am I looking at wrong scale?

also im looking here and there is natural minor, melodic minor, and harmonic minor, whats the difference between all these?
Blues, classical, metal. Who says you cant love all 3?
Last edited by ThatDarnDavid at Aug 21, 2011,
#14
Follow Alan's advice.

It's better to learn how a scale is constructed, rather than learning all the notes individually.

The A natural minor scale shares the same notes as C major, the difference between A minor and C major is where the notes resolve.

Melodic minor contains a raised 6th and 7th when ascending, and is the same as the natural minor when descending. The harmonic minor contains a raised 7th.

The raised 7th is because it creates a stronger resolution to the tonic, using the #7 as a leading tone like the major scale. Classical musicians especially love this. The raised 6th in the melodic minor is used to avoid the augmented 2nd between the natural 6th and the raised 7th when ascending.

musictheory.net

Go through the lessons on that. It should clue you up so you can understand what I just said. Understanding the theory is much more effective than knowing arbitrary shapes.
#15
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
Follow Alan's advice.

It's better to learn how a scale is constructed, rather than learning all the notes individually.

The A natural minor scale shares the same notes as C major, the difference between A minor and C major is where the notes resolve.

Melodic minor contains a raised 6th and 7th when ascending, and is the same as the natural minor when descending. The harmonic minor contains a raised 7th.

The raised 7th is because it creates a stronger resolution to the tonic, using the #7 as a leading tone like the major scale. Classical musicians especially love this. The raised 6th in the melodic minor is used to avoid the augmented 2nd between the natural 6th and the raised 7th when ascending.

musictheory.net

Go through the lessons on that. It should clue you up so you can understand what I just said. Understanding the theory is much more effective than knowing arbitrary shapes.



good post

Quote by Jesse Clarkson
The A natural minor scale shares the same notes as C major, the difference between A minor and C major is where the notes resolve.


would the A minor scale be considered the aeolian mode in C major?
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#16
Quote by ThatDarnDavid
would the A minor scale be considered the aeolian mode in C major?

Basically yes, but you probably don't want to get modes involved in this. There are far more useful concepts to learn before conquering modes.

A more proper term would be relative minor.
E:-6
B:-0
G:-5
D:-6
A:-0
E:-3
#17
Quote by ThatDarnDavid
would the A minor scale be considered the aeolian mode in C major?


Explain to me the different between A minor and C major, and explain to me the difference between a mode and a key and I'll entertain your question.
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#18
Quote by AlanHB
Explain to me the different between A minor and C major, and explain to me the difference between a mode and a key and I'll entertain your question.

i dont know why u are asking me questing when i am clearly trying to be on the learning end.

diff between a minor and c major = according to this thread is where the notes resolve.

difference between a mode and a key = the key is the tonal center of a scale, and the mode is where a the pattern begins and resolves.

is this correct?
Blues, classical, metal. Who says you cant love all 3?
#19
Quote by AlanHB
Do you know them all over the fretboard? Or just in one place? Can you identify the key of a song? Do you know how to use accidentals?

I ask this because once you learn minor and major, and how to use accidentals, you really don't need anything else.

I can't what should I do?
#20
GAH!! /facepalm You're right, I guess Cmaj was creeping around in my head :'( doah...

Correction- an accidental is one of the five notes outside of the scale you are playing- for example in Cmaj all the enharmonic notes.
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Men fapping.


Sorry, didn't realize I was that loud.

I'll be leaving your closet now.
#21
Quote by iancmtaylor
GAH!! /facepalm You're right, I guess Cmaj was creeping around in my head :'( doah...

Correction- an accidental is one of the five notes outside of the scale you are playing- for example in Cmaj all the enharmonic notes.

What about octotonic scales?
#22
Any note outside of the scale is an accidental/chromatic, if that pleases you more.

And it isn't true that only guitarists can snap a G-string while fingering a minor and not go to jail for it - lots of string players can!
#23
Quote by Vlasco
Any note outside of the scale is an accidental/chromatic, if that pleases you more.

And it isn't true that only guitarists can snap a G-string while fingering a minor and not go to jail for it - lots of string players can!

haha u noticed that too. i laughed.
Blues, classical, metal. Who says you cant love all 3?
#24
Quote by ThatDarnDavid
i dont know why u are asking me questing when i am clearly trying to be on the learning end.

diff between a minor and c major = according to this thread is where the notes resolve.

difference between a mode and a key = the key is the tonal center of a scale, and the mode is where a the pattern begins and resolves.

is this correct?


I'm asking you questions because I need to identify what you need learning.

In relation to A minor and C major, what do YOU think? There's no use just saying "because this thread said so". Do you know what "resolves" really means in the context of a song? What makes a major different from minor?

As for the mode/key, it's completely wrong sorry. A mode is a different form of tonality to a key. A song is either in a mode OR a key. It has nothing to do with the position on the fretboard, nor what note you start on when playing in a major or minor key. For this reason we encourage users to get a firm foundation in major and minor keys before venturing into modes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#25
Quote by AlanHB
As for the mode/key, it's completely wrong sorry. A mode is a different form of tonality to a key. A song is either in a mode OR a key. It has nothing to do with the position on the fretboard, nor what note you start on when playing in a major or minor key. For this reason we encourage users to get a firm foundation in major and minor keys before venturing into modes.


Right. Modes have a tonal center, too: it's just brought about in different ways than key-based music.
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#26
Quote by soviet_ska
Right. Modes have a tonal center, too: it's just brought about in different ways than key-based music.


Sure thing, they're not "atonal" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd argue that the tonal centre is less "firm" than those in major and minor keys.
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#27
Quote by AlanHB
Sure thing, they're not "atonal" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd argue that the tonal centre is less "firm" than those in major and minor keys.


Agreed. I can't think of anything else to add, so I'll just make fun of you for using the British spelling of 'centre' instead. Ha!
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#28
Quote by soviet_ska
Agreed. I can't think of anything else to add, so I'll just make fun of you for using the British spelling of 'centre' instead. Ha!


You mean Australian spelling
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#29
Quote by AlanHB
Sure thing, they're not "atonal" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'd argue that the tonal centre is less "firm" than those in major and minor keys.


Less "firm"?

You either have a tonal center or you don't.
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#30
Learning all the modes of the harmonic and melodic minor scales will really help if you eventually decide to try playing over jazz changes. Even as a rock guitar player, I'm sure you would be able to find some use for them, I dunno.

Also, diminished and whole tone scales are good to know. for some strange reason, I've been a lazy bastard and still haven't done those in all positions...

Whole tone scale sounds good over an altered dominant chord, like in the key of C, if the chart says G7+5, you can play the whole tone scale and get a cool, spacey type of sound.
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Last edited by thegloaming at Aug 22, 2011,
#31
Actually, I think I remember reading in the Joe Pass book that, even over an unaltered G7 chord, you could still play a whole tone scale. That would mean that the D natural and D# would clash....but I guess thats what makes it jazz. hahahaha
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#32
Quote by GuitarMunky
Less "firm"?

You either have a tonal center or you don't.


And jelly is a solid too, like a brick.

But there's no need to pick on the way that people perceive musical features, I'm simply saying that for me, one of the defining features of a mode vs a key is that the pull towards the tonal center is less strong. Somebody has even agreed with me.

So pick away if you must, we both agree that there's a tonal center, you just have issues with how I perceive it.
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#33
Quote by AlanHB
And jelly is a solid too, like a brick.

But there's no need to pick on the way that people perceive musical features,


Oh, I see. You never do that.

Quote by AlanHB

I'm simply saying that for me, one of the defining features of a mode vs a key is that the pull towards the tonal center is less strong. Somebody has even agreed with me.



as if somebody here agreeing with you makes your point any more or less true.

and yeah having a V - I cadence is a stronger resolution than what is available for the modes. The tonic though isn't more "firm", if anything it's more fluid.... it's the jelly, not the brick because in tonality (Major/minor) there are more options to play with the sense of where the tonic is such as with altered dominants, or actually changing the tonic with modulation.
Modes generally just revolve around 1 stable tonic.

Quote by AlanHB

we both agree that there's a tonal center, you just have issues with how I perceive it.


issues with how you often present it, yes. I'm not exactly sure how you perceive it.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 23, 2011,
#34
Quote by GuitarMunky
and yeah having a V - I cadence is a stronger resolution than what is available for the modes. The tonic though isn't more "firm", if anything it's more fluid.... it's the jelly, not the brick because in tonality (Major/minor) there are more options to play with the sense of where the tonic is such as with altered dominants, or actually changing the tonic with modulation.
Modes generally just revolve around 1 stable tonic.


Now we're just mashing up metaphors, blurring the whole point of the discussion. Regardless of how you feel the jelly or brick represents modality and key-centered works, they each have their own sound. That's really all that needs to be said.
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#35
Quote by soviet_ska
they each have their own sound.


I agree with that.
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#36
Quote by AlanHB
I'm asking you questions because I need to identify what you need learning.

In relation to A minor and C major, what do YOU think? There's no use just saying "because this thread said so". Do you know what "resolves" really means in the context of a song? What makes a major different from minor?

As for the mode/key, it's completely wrong sorry. A mode is a different form of tonality to a key. A song is either in a mode OR a key. It has nothing to do with the position on the fretboard, nor what note you start on when playing in a major or minor key. For this reason we encourage users to get a firm foundation in major and minor keys before venturing into modes.


Do you know what "resolves" really means in the context of a song?
As notes travel farther from the tonic it causes tension. As it eventually comes back to tonic it is resolved.

What makes a major different from minor?
I believe it is a flat third (major = 1,3,5) (minor 1,b3, 5)

I much appreciate any notes, or further expansion on the answers you have.

I also would like to encourage this conversation to go on between everyone. Back and forth discussions really help me review what I already know, and pick up on things that I am shaky on.
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Last edited by ThatDarnDavid at Aug 23, 2011,
#37
Quote by GuitarMunky

and yeah having a V - I cadence is a stronger resolution than what is available for the modes. The tonic though isn't more "firm", if anything it's more fluid.... it's the jelly, not the brick because in tonality (Major/minor) there are more options to play with the sense of where the tonic is such as with altered dominants, or actually changing the tonic with modulation.
Modes generally just revolve around 1 stable tonic.


Gotcha. It's not firmer, the pull to it is stronger.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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