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#1
So the song is written in Ab phrygian, and the first main diminished lick in the solo uses the blues scale. Then the next chord, Db minor, uses Db aeolian. But when he switches to the E minor chord is he changing keys?
Last edited by fretmaster13 at Aug 22, 2011,
#3
Quote by fretmaster13
So the song is written in Ab phrygian, and the first main diminished lick in the solo uses the blues scale. Then the next chord, Db minor, uses Db aeolian. But when he switches to the E minor chord is he changing keys?


Wow, you have some serious backtracking to do.

Start by figuring out the chord progression and we'll work with you from there. For future reference, it's not modal. That means no modes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#4
He wrote the song with a chord progression of E, A, Ab. The key of the song is Ab. Then the solo uses what I said earlier... It goes from Ab minor to Db minor (talking about chords here, not keys) He uses the Ab blues pentatonic scale over the Ab chord. Then he uses the Db aeolian mode over the Db minor chord. Then he goes back to the Ab chord where he uses the pentatonic scale. Then he hits an E minor chord. That's where it gets hazy.

The real question, which shouldn't be difficult if you look up the song on youtube, is whether he changed keys when he went to that E minor chord, because he played the Eb aeolian mode/minor scale, which doesn't fit within the Ab minor key.
#6
Quote by fretmaster13
Pitch axis theory anyone?


1. Not downtuned?

2. If the key is Ab, the scale is Ab major.

3. Pitch axis theory eh? Doesn't have any relevance with your constantly changing tonic in relation to the scales.

Treat this as a learning experience. As you said, it's not a hard question, but it appears that you are mislead with music theory, so you mayn't understand the answer.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#7
Taken from Wikipedia just to be clear on what I mean here

C Ionian (C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C) is also D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D), E Phrygian (E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E)
#8
It is downtuned. I thought someone would give me the benefit of the doubt of knowing that. The song is technically in G minor, but, of course, the song is downtuned so I called it Ab minor.
#9
Randys Leads in that song all used g# minor fingering but the guitar was tuned down 1/2 step so that would mean g minor.
#11
It has a weird chord progression. Especially in the solo. You let me know what you think.
#12
Im pretty sure Randy wasnt really thinking a whole lot about chord progressions b/c most of that solo is atonal whammying
#14
I bet he WAS thinking of chord progressions. It has to make musical sense. If he changed keys there, then I understand it. He changed keys multiple times in the solo of S.A.T.O. but you guys seem to make it harder than the question is... When he hits that Eb minor chord in the solo it sure as hell sounds like he's changing keys. The question is: IS HE?
#15
In the chorus he uses an Eb power chord with the melody implying that he is using an Eb major chord. But then it changes to an Eb power chord in the solo that implies Eb minor scale or E minor aeolian based on the solo he plays over it.
#17
This guy......... please stop posting your nonsense. To the guy that actually seems to know what he's talking about... listen to the song and let me know what you think.
#18
I have multiple recordings of me playing the song w/ solo and leads slapped up as mp3s here on my UG page...lol I know this song 100%
#19
I already caught you. He plays E and F# power chords with an extra 5th added below the root in the chorus. Get off this thread. You don't know Randy Rhoads like I do.
#21
no
The chorus chords are C minor/Bb minor...during the part where ozzy does not need any astrology...and the chords are C5 and Bb 5 both w/ a 6/4 figured bass during the part where ozzy hears them tell him that the land of dreams is now.
/owned
#22
Nope, you can clearly hear in the recording that it is in fact played the way I said. I don't know how musically virgin ears will be able to hear it like I can, but good luck in your musical ventures.
#23
dude u r a dumbass...enjoy those narcissistic dellusions of success that have kept you into music thusfar...enjoy them b/c they are all you have...lolol
#24
Did you know Randy changed keys in the live version of Paranoid he played? Yep. I don't see why this is hard. I guess because you guys don't know, I have my answer. He changed keys to Eb minor in Over the Mountain.
#25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS0f8ERha04

Right here at 1:33 he changes keys from E minor to E flat minor for one little lick. He changed keys a lot, but I wasn't sure about Over the Mountain. Thanks for reassuring myself that I know more about music theory than the self-proclaimed ones. Oh, and for nothing too.
#26
When you ask a question that's too hard for noobs they get defensive and the only thing you can do is make musical judgments for yourself.
#27
If @ any point during the solo, if in fact the tonal center has been shifted to Eb, then would would have randy included the following backing rhythym guitar part with a CONSTANT stream of 16th note "g"'s during the WHOLE solo?

eb|-----------------------------------------|
bb|-----------------------------------------|
gb|-----------------------------2--4-------|
db|-----------------------------2--4-------|
ab|-----------------------------0--2-------|
eb|-4-4-4-4-----4-4-4-4----------------|

I will not waste one more precious second of my life discussing this with you b/c it would be irrational of me to do so.
#28
Someone tell me how it's possible to put Ab minor pentatonic, Db minor scale, and E minor scale into one key?
Last edited by fretmaster13 at Aug 23, 2011,
#30
What's irrational is your terrible ability to get your point across. I have no idea what your last post was trying to say.
#32
Quote by fretmaster13
Someone tell me how it's possible to put Ab minor pentatonic, Db minor scale, and E minor scale into one key?


No. If there is one key, any notes used outside the parent scale are considered accidentals.

Are you willing to use the edit button in the future to put all your answers into one post? If not I can simply close the thread and it can end now.

I'll just give you the real answer.

The chorus' and verses are in G minor. Over these Randy uses the G minor scale with accidentals.

The solo does modulate to Eb. However the majority of it is still in G minor. I'm undecided as to whether it modulates to C minor in between them, it doesn't feel resolved on C.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#34
Quote by DiabolusMusica5
I have multiple recordings of me playing the song w/ solo and leads slapped up as mp3s here on my UG page...lol I know this song 100%

Just because you know how to play something doesn't mean you know what's going on musically.

BTW, there is nothing atonal in this song. Atonal means there is no key, which this song clearly has.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#35
In the solo he uses the C minor scale, the G pentatonic minor scale, the G blues scale, and the D# minor scale if we're going to refer to the actual note sound rather than the chord positions when tuning down. I was basically right then except for referring to scale shapes as modes. The solo starts on the G chord, then goes to C, but then changes keys to D# until the end of the solo.

You can hear how the C chord would resolve to G. That makes the key of the solo at the start G.


Also, in the live Paranoid solo, upon further listening it sounds like the bass didn't change keys with him, so I guess he made a mistake there? I don't know why he would play an Eb minor scale over an E natural bass note unless he really wanted it to sound weird, which I guess is possible. I looked up a backing track on youtube and played the natural minor scale one half step below whatever key it was in, and it sounded weird, but not terrible. What's the theory behind this?

By the way, I know about accidentals and how it can avoid changing keys. I just prefer to call it changing keys, because I don't know how Randy or Iommi would have written the music.
Last edited by fretmaster13 at Aug 23, 2011,
#36
Quote by fretmaster13
In the solo he uses the C minor scale, the G pentatonic minor scale, the G blues scale, and the D# minor scale if we're going to refer to the actual note sound rather than the chord positions when tuning down. I was basically right then except for referring to scale shapes as modes. The solo starts on the G chord, then goes to C, but then changes keys to D# until the end of the solo.

You can hear how the C chord would resolve to G. That makes the key of the solo at the start G.


Close. There are only two keys, and one modulation. The key of a song is determined by where it resolves, not the notes played over it. So as you note, the C minor portion still feels like it's going to resolve to G minor. This is because it is still in the key of G minor. Therefore he is not playing the C minor scale, but the G minor scale with accidentals.

However the D# minor portion does modulate to D# minor, so you are correct in thinking that the scale used over this is D# minor.

Quote by fretmaster13
Also, in the live Paranoid solo, upon further listening it sounds like the bass didn't change keys with him, so I guess he made a mistake there? I don't know why he would play an Eb minor scale over an E natural bass note unless he really wanted it to sound weird, which I guess is possible. I looked up a backing track on youtube and played the natural minor scale one half step below whatever key it was in, and it sounded weird, but not terrible. What's the theory behind this?

By the way, I know about accidentals and how it can avoid changing keys. I just prefer to call it changing keys, because I don't know how Randy or Iommi would have written the music.


It's extremely hard to tell what you are asking when you don't tend to refer to the notes, but the position on the fretboard, and you also having a different definition of "changing key". For future reference, accidentals, non accidentals, any note played over the top of a progression have little to no bearing on where a progression resolves to.

All I can say is write out the chord progression, and work from there.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#38
Quote by Cflobucket
^
This why some musicians bring a bad picture to my head :l


Sorry sir. You have found yourself in a music theory forum. The "mindless comments" forum can be found elsewhere.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#39
So that would mean that it's possible to play an E minor chord while playing the E natural minor scale, then if I played, say, a B minor chord for instance, I could play the E minor scale with accidentals, or the B natural minor scale over that chord? If a chord in a progression that isn't the tonic is a minor chord it's possible to play the relative minor scale shape over it? Same for the major chords?

A better way to explain myself is if you were playing the 12 bar blues, can you play the pentatonic scale relative to each chord? Like A minor pentatonic over the A chord, then E over the E chord, and then D over the D chord?

I guess I know it's possible, but I don't know if it's musically pleasing. I'm probably far off.

I guess I've been listening to and playing too many Yngwie licks. He never really plays anything with true notes outside of scales beside the 6th degree of the harmonic minor scale. It's starting to make more sense. Accidentals are notes that aren't on any of the spaces or lines in a bar of music. I think I remember that from high school music theory class. Are they used to create tension in every case?

I just got back into guitar playing 3 months ago after not playing for nearly 4 years, so I've been playing a lot of straight scales.

Could you help me out with one more thing by him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iEdH4imLr4

In this at :37 he plays some notes outside of the E minor scale. He plays an augmented 6th instead of a natural 6th for one line. This is the same scale degree that separates the natural minor scale from Dorian. But you wouldn't call it Dorian... it's just a simple line with a tension tone or accidental? Tell me if I'm anywhere close. Sorry this is so long.
Last edited by fretmaster13 at Aug 24, 2011,
#40
Quote by fretmaster13
So that would mean that it's possible to play an E minor chord while playing the E natural minor scale, then if I played, say, a B minor chord for instance, I could play the E minor scale with accidentals, or the B natural minor scale over that chord? If a chord in a progression that isn't the tonic is a minor chord it's possible to play the relative minor scale shape over it? Same for the major chords?


It depends where the progression resolves to. Let's say the progression resolves to E minor. The B minor chord itself is derived from the notes of the E minor scale, it's within the key, so no accidentals need be employed over it - the E minor scale won't clash. If the progression resolved to B minor, it would B minor over both chords.

Accidentals are simply out-of-key notes. Nothing to do with spaces or lines. In a key there's 7 in-key notes. There's a total of 12 notes. The other 5 notes are accidentals. Using an accidental has little to no impact on where a progression resolves.


Quote by fretmaster13
A better way to explain myself is if you were playing the 12 bar blues, can you play the pentatonic scale relative to each chord? Like A minor pentatonic over the A chord, then E over the E chord, and then D over the D chord?

I guess I know it's possible, but I don't know if it's musically pleasing. I'm probably far off.


12 bar blues in A. It's in the key of A. Regardless of what notes you play, you'll always be playing the A major scale. Any notes used outside of this scale are accidentals.

Quote by fretmaster13
I guess I've been listening to and playing too many Yngwie licks. He never really plays anything with true notes outside of scales beside the 6th degree of the harmonic minor scale. It's starting to make more sense. Accidentals are notes that aren't on any of the spaces or lines in a bar of music. I think I remember that from high school music theory class. Are they used to create tension in every case?


Not in every case no. There are times when an out-of-key chord is employed, and you employ accidentals to avoid clashes. The rest of the time the accidental played will want to pull a half-tone up or down to fit back in key however.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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