#1
Supposing you had this setup for a song that is Riff Based...

Lead Guitar
Rhythm Guitar
Bass
Drums
Vocals

Would the Lead Guitar Play the Riff and the Rhythm Guitar play chords, and why?
OR
Would both Lead and Rhythm Guitars play the riff, and why?
OR
Would Lead Guitar play a few notes over the riff played by Rhythm Guitar, and why?

And whatever the answer is, can you please name me some examples of 80's Metal/Hard Rock songs that do this?
-DC
Last edited by BigDC at Aug 29, 2011,
#2
When you're talking riffs, usually both guitars and sometimes the bass all do the riff at the same time- Metallica, Iron Maiden are big examples.
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#3
Anything you want, buddy.

Personally, though, I hate it when two guitars repeatedly play the same thing without deviation.
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#4
Sweet Child of mine had the lead thing with Izzy playing chords and the bass complimenting Slash.
#6
I guess play the same thing, or things that sound well together.
Also you could do lead fills without making you're background sound lifeless.
I can only call up one song that has different parts.
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The lead guitar uses:
Eb5 Db5 Cm6( just the C and the minor 6th no other notes)
The rhythm goes like:
Db5 Dbmaj6(just Db +maj6
#7
Quote by liampje
The lead guitar uses:
Eb5 Db5 Cm6( just the C and the minor 6th no other notes)
The rhythm goes like:
Db5 Dbmaj6(just Db +maj6


then that Cm6 would be an Abmaj without the fifth, and then the Dbmaj6 would just be Bbm without the fifth. non?

TS, try not to restrict yourself so much.
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#9
Quote by soviet_ska
Anything you want, buddy.

Personally, though, I hate it when two guitars repeatedly play the same thing without deviation.

Agreed. I've seen so many bands where the only time the lead guitar has a unique part is the solo. I honestly don't think it's worth having a lead guitar if that's the only time you use it.

TS, there is no formula for this. Try all of them and see which you prefer in the context of the song.
#10
Quote by BigDC
Supposing you had this setup for a song that is Riff Based...

Lead Guitar
Rhythm Guitar
Bass
Drums
Vocals

Would the Lead Guitar Play the Riff and the Rhythm Guitar play chords, and why?
OR
Would both Lead and Rhythm Guitars play the riff, and why?
OR
Would Lead Guitar play a few notes over the riff played by Rhythm Guitar, and why?

And whatever the answer is, can you please name me some examples of 80's Metal/Hard Rock songs that do this?


For a rhythm riff, like the verses in Metallica's Creeping Death (and a million other songs) the rhythm guitar and bass play the riff. Often the lead guitar player doubles on rhythm when there's no lead playing, so he'll play the riff too - or maybe a harmonisation or a different voice / part of it. The riff takes the place of a chord progression, so no one has to play 'chords' as well.

For a lead guitar riff like Eric Clapton's Layla you'd probably have chords playing under it, so lead guitar = riff, rhythm guitar = chords.
#11
Always do what will sound best in the specific context of a song. Like Soviet said, don't restrict yourself based on some sort of rigid formula. If a riff calls for it, you might want the whole band playing it at once to fill out the sound. But what if it's more interesting for the rhythm to introduce a counter-melody? What if the riff gets fatiguing with too much repetition? Go by your ear, not by a rulebook.
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#12
Quote by AeolianWolf
then that Cm6 would be an Abmaj without the fifth, and then the Dbmaj6 would just be Bbm without the fifth. non?

TS, try not to restrict yourself so much.

I said just the C and the minor sixth, and said just the Db and the maj6th).
I don't know if you got it wrong but, I was just talking about 2 notes.
#13
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
Agreed. I've seen so many bands where the only time the lead guitar has a unique part is the solo. I honestly don't think it's worth having a lead guitar if that's the only time you use it.

TS, there is no formula for this. Try all of them and see which you prefer in the context of the song.


I completely agree. Additionally you shouldn't have the attitude that "rhythm guitar plays chords". They don't have to play chords.

As said above, figure out complementary parts.
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#14
Do what sounds good. When I'm recording I'll often have 4 or 5 guitars playing, even though there's only 2 actual guitar parts if it was being played live. It fills out the sound better for the final production, you'll find that most pro bands do something similar and use several tracks in the studio to record what can be played by just 2 guitars live.
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#15
Quote by liampje
I said just the C and the minor sixth, and said just the Db and the maj6th).
I don't know if you got it wrong but, I was just talking about 2 notes.


all your study, and you haven't even learned something as simple as an inversion?

if you can't see where i'm coming from, discard everything you know (and i mean everything) and start over.
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#16
Quote by liampje
I said just the C and the minor sixth, and said just the Db and the maj6th).
I don't know if you got it wrong but, I was just talking about 2 notes.


You really need to take an actual theory class, this is getting concerning
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#17
Quote by BigDC
Supposing you had this setup for a song that is Riff Based...

Lead Guitar
Rhythm Guitar
Bass
Drums
Vocals

Would the Lead Guitar Play the Riff and the Rhythm Guitar play chords, and why?
OR
Would both Lead and Rhythm Guitars play the riff, and why?
OR
Would Lead Guitar play a few notes over the riff played by Rhythm Guitar, and why?

And whatever the answer is, can you please name me some examples of 80's Metal/Hard Rock songs that do this?


Here's a better idea:

Why don't you listen to some examples of 80's metal and hard rock ...

... and figure it out yourself.

Now, that may sound rude, but the thing is it's easy to come up examples of all of the above. There is no right answer. You clearly have something in mind, compositionally, so why not study how other people have done it and learn directly from the source?

What you're asking is not particularly hard to figure out if you listen to the music. "What are the different parts that I hear? How does it feel like those different parts work together?"

If you want to be able to compose yourself and do anything beyond the most abject cliches, you have to be able to listen to what people are doing and figure it out. Now, look, sometimes part of that is hard: it's not always easy to figure out the complex riff someone's playing, or to figure out which chords are inversions, and so on.

But what you're asking? It's easy - and what you'll learn from actually doing the work will help you.

(It might be a good idea, however, to listen to live versions of the songs so you don't get caught up in multiple overdubs).
#18
Quote by HotspurJr
(It might be a good idea, however, to listen to live versions of the songs so you don't get caught up in multiple overdubs).

Actually, it's probably a good idea to listen to both so you can compare the differences in arrangement between the recorded version & the live version. Just a thought.
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#19
You can do whatever you want really. Your guitar parts do not have to be bound to 'this one does only lead picking' and 'this one only does rhythm strumming'. Check out Iron Maiden - both guitars often play both lead and rhythm both together and alternatively; I think their song "The Trooper" is a good example of this.
Too, bands like Metallica will often have both guitars playing the rhythm guitar through most of the song and have the one guitar doing solos and leads in certain parts of the song - I think their song "Ride The Lightning" illustrates this pretty well.

Happy composing!
#20
Quote by AeolianWolf
all your study, and you haven't even learned something as simple as an inversion?

if you can't see where i'm coming from, discard everything you know (and i mean everything) and start over.

Wait I remember.
Perfect stays perfect.
Major becomes minor and vice versa.
Aug becomes diminished.
2nd-7th
3rd-6th
4th-5th
and vice versa
So when something is just an interval except 3rd 5th or 7th you turn it around?
#21
Quote by liampje
Wait I remember.
Perfect stays perfect.
Major becomes minor and vice versa.
Aug becomes diminished.
2nd-7th
3rd-6th
4th-5th
and vice versa
So when something is just an interval except 3rd 5th or 7th you turn it around?


remember a while back, we had that argument that "two notes does not a chord make"? well, i'm sticking by that, and so will other traditional theorists. however, if you have C and a m6 above it (the Ab), i would look at the harmony as being Abmaj, even though i don't think that it's an Abmaj chord. hence why i said "Abmaj without the fifth" instead of just "Abmaj". but the harmony is still very much Abmaj.

you're not incorrect the way you say that, but you're better off looking at it from a functional perspective.
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#22
So basically, there is no hard set formula. That's good for me, as I have some parts that actually have Lead Guitar playing just a few notes over the Rhythm Guitar playing a riff and it actually sounded good to me and some others, but I always thought you could not do this. But now I see, it is all in what sounds good to me and what sounds good to others.


Quote by HotspurJr
Here's a better idea:

Why don't you listen to some examples of 80's metal and hard rock ...

... and figure it out yourself.

Now, that may sound rude, but the thing is it's easy to come up examples of all of the above. There is no right answer. You clearly have something in mind, compositionally, so why not study how other people have done it and learn directly from the source?

What you're asking is not particularly hard to figure out if you listen to the music. "What are the different parts that I hear? How does it feel like those different parts work together?"

If you want to be able to compose yourself and do anything beyond the most abject cliches, you have to be able to listen to what people are doing and figure it out. Now, look, sometimes part of that is hard: it's not always easy to figure out the complex riff someone's playing, or to figure out which chords are inversions, and so on.

But what you're asking? It's easy - and what you'll learn from actually doing the work will help you.

(It might be a good idea, however, to listen to live versions of the songs so you don't get caught up in multiple overdubs).


HotspurJr, it does not sound rude, it sounds like good advice and that is what I am going to do, thanks.


Also, thank you to EVERYONE who commented, it really helped me a lot!
-DC
#23
Quote by AeolianWolf
remember a while back, we had that argument that "two notes does not a chord make"? well, i'm sticking by that, and so will other traditional theorists. however, if you have C and a m6 above it (the Ab), i would look at the harmony as being Abmaj, even though i don't think that it's an Abmaj chord. hence why i said "Abmaj without the fifth" instead of just "Abmaj". but the harmony is still very much Abmaj.

you're not incorrect the way you say that, but you're better off looking at it from a functional perspective.

That's something I just learned of that new theory book.
And it's better then berklee, because that just learned me the most obvious points.
In the book I now have read I learned how to spell a scale the correct way.
Why there is an F # in G major is because there is already a note with G.
You can't say G A B C D E Gb G, because where the **** is F?
#24
Quote by soviet_ska
Personally, though, I hate it when two guitars repeatedly play the same thing without deviation.

Yeah, but when Thin Lizzy does it, it sounds incredible.
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#25
Quote by liampje
where the **** is F?


Well put.
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#26
Quote by liampje
That's something I just learned of that new theory book.


Is this the AB guide?
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Aug 31, 2011,
#27
Quote by BigDC
Supposing you had this setup for a song that is Riff Based...

Lead Guitar
Rhythm Guitar
Bass
Drums
Vocals

Would the Lead Guitar Play the Riff and the Rhythm Guitar play chords, and why?
OR
Would both Lead and Rhythm Guitars play the riff, and why?
OR
Would Lead Guitar play a few notes over the riff played by Rhythm Guitar, and why?

And whatever the answer is, can you please name me some examples of 80's Metal/Hard Rock songs that do this?


honestly it just depends on how you want it to sound