#1
Alright, so i was messing around and found a chord progression i really like, but am trying to find a chord with the sound i want for the end.

its a 4 chord progression, and imagine its played:

E
1...2...3...4......

G#..........G#7
1...2...3...4......

A7
1...2...3...4..

X
1...2...3...4


where G#, G#7, and A7 are barre chords at the 4th and 5th frets

it would be like an intro, where the last chord is picked out slowly and let ring. then would move into a verse or something.

now, how do i want it to feel? im looking for something slightly dissonant (i think is how i would describe it). the closest i can get to the feeling/sound i want is F#7 (#5, #9):
E-10-
B-10-
G-9--
D-8--
A-9--
E-----

however i wish it were a lower tone, like F#7 kind of, but more... dissonant or unresolved or something.
sorry in advance that i dont know music well enough to describe this stuff
but thanks in advance at the same time!
Last edited by xadioriderx at Sep 18, 2011,
#2
Am6?

A - C - E - F#
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#3
Quote by soviet_ska
Am6?

A - C - E - F#


bah that sounds fantastic!
thank you!

can i ask, how did you come up with it? was there a certain method you used, or did you just pop it out and it sounded good? haha
#4
Quote by xadioriderx
bah that sounds fantastic!
thank you!

can i ask, how did you come up with it? was there a certain method you used, or did you just pop it out and it sounded good? haha


Well, judging by your description, I assumed you didn't want a perfect cadence, so V and vii* were out.

I went with your F# start and how you wanted something more dissonant. I thought about the ii*7 - i idea from minor keys--in this case, a F# half-diminished 7th--and borrowed it over to your major key. It's a resolution, but not as strong as a perfect cadence. Plus, it gives that iv - I type of feel, which I absolutely love.

From there I just put it in first inversion, which is somewhat customary of diminished chords. Seeing it spelled out an Am6, I just called it that for ease of notation.
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#5
Quote by soviet_ska
Well, judging by your description, I assumed you didn't want a perfect cadence, so V and vii* were out.

I went with your F# start and how you wanted something more dissonant. I thought about the ii*7 - i idea from minor keys--in this case, a F# half-diminished 7th--and borrowed it over to your major key. It's a resolution, but not as strong as a perfect cadence. Plus, it gives that iv - I type of feel, which I absolutely love.

From there I just put it in first inversion, which is somewhat customary of diminished chords. Seeing it spelled out an Am6, I just called it that for ease of notation.



ok i feel like this is what you just did:


and these are an array of my responses



on another note, you just gave me something to look into for the next few... days. and i really appreciate it
#6
Quote by xadioriderx
ok i feel like this is what you just did:


and these are an array of my responses



on another note, you just gave me something to look into for the next few... days. and i really appreciate it


Haha, it's hard to explain, I guess. I've never really had to before!

If you're familiar with diatonic harmony, you can start with just taking chords from minor keys and throwing them into major progressions and vice versa. See what sticks. If you're not familiar with diatonic harmony, that'll be good place to start. Good luck!
Nothing that is worthwhile in life will ever come easy.
#8
Quote by xadioriderx
thanks! =) im still trying to figure out the V and ii* thing. thats how far behind in theory i am


Those would be scale degrees.

In a scale each note is assigned a roman numeral to represent it. This allows for us to use the degree as a variable.

Now the difference between lowercase and uppercase numbers is Major and minor chords. Major being upper and minor being lower

In C major -
I ii iii IV V vi vii* <-- the * denotes it as a diminished chord
C D E F G A B


In A minor -
i ii* III iv V VI vii*
A B C D E F G
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#9
Quote by xadioriderx
Alright, so i was messing around and found a chord progression i really like, but am trying to find a chord with the sound i want for the end.

its a 4 chord progression, and imagine its played:

E
1...2...3...4......

G#..........G#7
1...2...3...4......

A7
1...2...3...4..

X
1...2...3...4


where G#, G#7, and A7 are barre chords at the 4th and 5th frets

it would be like an intro, where the last chord is picked out slowly and let ring. then would move into a verse or something.

now, how do i want it to feel? im looking for something slightly dissonant (i think is how i would describe it). the closest i can get to the feeling/sound i want is F#7 (#5, #9):
E-10-
B-10-
G-9--
D-8--
A-9--
E-----

however i wish it were a lower tone, like F#7 kind of, but more... dissonant or unresolved or something.
sorry in advance that i dont know music well enough to describe this stuff
but thanks in advance at the same time!


2 4 2 3 5 5

Something like that? and maybe to a B afterwards, like B11? Or even Bm11

Best,

Sean
#10
Quote by Sean0913
2 4 2 3 5 5

Something like that? and maybe to a B afterwards, like B11? Or even Bm11

Best,

Sean


yeah thats F# dom7 #9, i tried that one, then ended up with the #5 on there too. both were pretty good options! i think both that and the Am6 are good options ill play with
#12
Quote by vampirelazarus
Those would be scale degrees.

In a scale each note is assigned a roman numeral to represent it. This allows for us to use the degree as a variable.

Now the difference between lowercase and uppercase numbers is Major and minor chords. Major being upper and minor being lower

In C major -
I ii iii IV V vi vii* <-- the * denotes it as a diminished chord
C D E F G A B


In A minor -
i ii* III iv V VI vii*
A B C D E F G


yeah i just finished reading about all that actually!
so do you guys have them all memorized? that seems like a lot to remember.
i still have to think about what notes are in each chord (i hate being self taught, i dont know the theory behind half of what im playing). i guess years of practice would help me remember, but still, thats a lot to memorize
#13
Quote by xadioriderx
yeah i just finished reading about all that actually!
so do you guys have them all memorized? that seems like a lot to remember.
i still have to think about what notes are in each chord (i hate being self taught, i dont know the theory behind half of what im playing). i guess years of practice would help me remember, but still, thats a lot to memorize



I do not have it memorized. But I do have chord formulas and the scales memorized. Using that, and the degrees, you can form any chord, any where.


Edit: and it will eventually come to you and become second nature.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#14
Quote by z4twenny
I was gonna suggest c#m7

ill give that a try after my movie is over haha
but in my mind i was going E, up to G#7, up to A7, then i wanted the last chord to drop back down, and without going like drop C or some tuning, the C#m7 would have to be higher voiced than the A7
#15
Quote by vampirelazarus
I do not have it memorized. But I do have chord formulas and the scales memorized. Using that, and the degrees, you can form any chord, any where.

i guess over time it will just work faster then. because for me to formulate chords, it takes me quite a while.
#16
Do you know the chord formulas?

Edit: Im also like you, only self taught, about to start college and minor in music, but ive never taken a class before. So its going to be interesting.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#17
Quote by xadioriderx
yeah i just finished reading about all that actually!
so do you guys have them all memorized? that seems like a lot to remember.
i still have to think about what notes are in each chord (i hate being self taught, i dont know the theory behind half of what im playing). i guess years of practice would help me remember, but still, thats a lot to memorize


Yes I have them all memorized. I teach it as well.

Takes me 3 lectures for my student to know every triad instantly, just as an example, and they do - 100% accuracy, if they do what I say.

Along the lines of F#, you can also try:

2 x 2 3 3 x

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Sep 18, 2011,
#18
Quote by Sean0913
Yes I have them all memorized.


I really hope I do when I'm done with school.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#19
Quote by vampirelazarus
I really hope I do when I'm done with school.


Maybe you will, I've never been to any school or had lessons, so I dont know how immersed that you might become to that. Not saying that as if it is a good thing - part of me would have loved to be exposed to a lot more of a musically encouraging and collaborative environment and things like chorale writing, and counterpoint, rather than being self taught for like the last 27 years.

Best,

Sean
#20
Quote by vampirelazarus
Do you know the chord formulas?

a few, but not all of them, id like to get those down, that would help a lot!


Quote by Sean0913
Yes I have them all memorized. I teach it as well.


my buddy that normally explains all this stuff to me is named sean too, so thats ironic and neat =p

you teach it, that makes sense that you would have it memorized!
i was just talking to my other buddy about this discussion thinking he would understand it, but he didnt, and he wanted to. your initial explanation that made me queezy took a while to interpret, but i figured it out and was able to explain it to him, and THAT helped me enormously.

now i know the major diatonic harmony idea, and i know the major scale chords I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii* (although if * means diminished, shouldnt it be VII*?)
and i was able to gete everything you said!
however, i still dont know where the vii*7 - i thing came from, i assume its just a common resolution for a minor scale?

i really want to learn this stuff, its just hard knowing where to start on your own!
Last edited by xadioriderx at Sep 18, 2011,
#21
The 7 is an embellishment on a chord.

A chord has three notes, the first note of a scale, and the chord name (I), the third note of the same scale, and this one determines if the chord is major or minor (major = iii, minor = biii) and the third note is the fifth note of the scale (V)

The 7, as said, is a simple embellishment on a chord, and its the seventh note of the scale.

So in a C#m7 chord, we have four notes: C#(I) Fb(iii) G(V) and the 7, a B#(vii)
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
Last edited by vampirelazarus at Sep 18, 2011,
#22
Quote by xadioriderx


now i know the major diatonic harmony idea, and i know the major scale chords I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii* (although if * means diminished, shouldnt it be VII*?)
and i was able to gete everything you said!



No, if you look at a Diminished chord, it's got a minor 3rd on it - that is the lone determinant of what makes any chord Major or Minor. The 3rd. So the fact that its a lower case vii* is consistent with the idea behind the minor 3rd.

Best,

Sean

PS Keep it up... its not easy to go it alone - respect for even trying. You seem to be on the right track.
#23
Quote by vampirelazarus
The 7 is an embellishment on a chord.

A chord has three notes, the first note of a scale, and the chord name (I), the third note of the same scale, and this one determines if the chord is major or minor (major = iii, minor = biii) and the third note is the fifth note of the scale (V)

The 7, as said, is a simple embellishment on a chord, and its the seventh note of the scale.

So in a C#m7 chord, we have four notes: C#(I) Fb(iii) G(V) and the 7, a B#(vii)



Let me correct that my friend - its probably cause its late and I know you mean well but

- Its C# E and G# and B - not a B# - any kind of F is going to be a 4th, not a 3rd. The 7 in a Minor 7 is a b7, not a Natural 7th - if it were a Major 7th then B# would be appropriate.

Best,

Sean
#24
Quote by vampirelazarus
The 7 is an embellishment on a chord.
....


i should have stated better - i didnt know where he got the " vii*7 - i " resolution idea, i do know about 7th chords and that kind of thing, even though i dont know all the other formulas.


Quote by Sean0913
No, if you look at a Diminished chord, it's got a minor 3rd on it - that is the lone determinant of what makes any chord Major or Minor. The 3rd. So the fact that its a lower case vii* is consistent with the idea behind the minor 3rd.

Best,

Sean

PS Keep it up... its not easy to go it alone - respect for even trying. You seem to be on the right track.


ahh, so in a sense its almost redundant because * for diminished implies the minor 3rd, but it wouldnt make sense to make it uppercase because that would imply otherwise. i gotcha!

so now when you said vii*7, isnt that a diminished 7th, but you said half diminished 7th?
#25
Quote by Sean0913
Let me correct that my friend - its probably cause its late and I know you mean well but

- Its C# E and G# and B - not a B# - any kind of F is going to be a 4th, not a 3rd. The 7 in a Minor 7 is a b7, not a Natural 7th - if it were a Major 7th then B# would be appropriate.

Best,

Sean


I was wrong on the B/B#... it is in fact a B. I think I was thinking Major 7th, but hey, I could also be thinking about my job interview tomorrow...


Edit: I figured out what you meant, the third of C#, in the key of C#, is in fact E#. I want thinking about that little note F# when I went through the scale. I though of it as.... Well I don't even know what I though of it as, but it made me look silly.


Stupid F#
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
Last edited by vampirelazarus at Sep 18, 2011,
#26
Quote by xadioriderx
i should have stated better - i didnt know where he got the " vii*7 - i " resolution idea, i do know about 7th chords and that kind of thing, even though i dont know all the other formulas.
vii* is very similar to a V7 chord. Typically it is used in second inversion and it functions as a dominant just like the V does.
#27
Quote by Jesse Clarkson
vii* is very similar to a V7 chord. Typically it is used in second inversion and it functions as a dominant just like the V does.


im just reading about second inversions, i dont quite know when i would use it... mostly as a transitional chord? ill have to try a few out to see what they sound like. how do they apply to guitar?
an open C chord for example goes CEGCE
so if i were to move the low C up an octave to the first inversion, it wouldnt sound different except i wouldnt play the lowest C?
and second inversion would just be the highest 3 strings GCE?
that cant be right, im just not sure how else to interpret it. maybe the second inversion would be adding a low G on the low E string?
and how exactly does a dominant function? =p

thanks for taking time to help me out guys
Last edited by xadioriderx at Sep 18, 2011,
#28
Quote by vampirelazarus
I was wrong on the B/B#... it is in fact a B. I think I was thinking Major 7th, but hey, I could also be thinking about my job interview tomorrow...

But, the third of C# is F, and to keep stuff straight, I flattened the third to achieve a Cm... Fb

IMO, either way works in naming that third.



C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

...it's an E. That's why the major triad is CEG when not accounting for the key signature.

If it was CFG on staff paper, notation without skipping any octaves/assigning voicings would look ridiculous.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#29
Quote by Hail
C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

...it's an E. That's why the major triad is CEG when not accounting for the key signature.

If it was CFG on staff paper, notation without skipping any octaves/assigning voicings would look ridiculous.

I know the third of C is E. I want thinking logically, or was thinking too literally. I could still argue threat, physics wise, I was correct in saying F is the third of C#, but I'm not going too, because I just realized sean was right and the only F in the key of C# is F#.

Its: C# D# E# F# G# A# B# (C#)

I'm sorry for my mistake. In the future, I will think more before I tour the first thing that comes too mind
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#31
Quote by soviet_ska
Am6?

A - C - E - F#


The Creep - Radiohead progression? I - III - IV - iv
#33
Quote by soviet_ska
Am6?

A - C - E - F#


haha man that was the exact chord that came into my head when i saw the other chords! great minds and all that!
#35
alright, so if i play

E, G#7, A7, Am6
i feel like i could put some kind of transitional E chord on the way to the start again.. if that makes sense?

edit:
if its open E, barre G#7, barre A7, then Am6 is:
E 5x4550 e, then using E xx077x e which is almost a D works to transition, so maybe something around that? i guess just a d major works
Last edited by xadioriderx at Sep 18, 2011,