#1
So i just recently tested this out, and i actually got every mode to sound different and actually change the tonic of the song based on the chords that lie beneath my solo (thanks to my jamman)

I was wondering about switching modes though, say i was play a Dm7 chord then i wanted to switch modes from dorian to lets say..lydian?

the chord progression then have to change to a M7 chord or a M7#11 chord ? yes, no?


my real question is...if my chord progression calls for a change in modes...

how do i adjust if im in mid-solo? if im in the middle of soloing in dorian how would i adjust to that lydian? Would the chord just take care of that for me and my solo would switch to lydian? or would i have to do something else?

EG: like go back to the Actual Lydian shape.

thanks guys
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#2
The fiddly stuff you do on top of any progression has little to no bearing on the tonal center, ie. your note choice itself will not determine whether it's in a mode. Interestingly enough though, if you use enough accidentals it will affirm that your progression is actually in a key, and not a mode. The chord "progression" itself will have the most bearing on the tonal centre.

So the obvious question is "what are the chords underneath your solo"?
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#3
so if im in the middle of a lick or whatever in a solo and my chords change.... the mode will change by itself given whatever chord it is?
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#4
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
so if im in the middle of a lick or whatever in a solo and my chords change.... the mode will change by itself given whatever chord it is?


Possibly. It could alternatively:

- Stay in the same mode
- Go from a key to a mode
- Go from a mode to a key
- Change keys
- Stay in the same key

So what's the chord progression?
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#5
hold on...

so..if i had min9 min7 or min11 to a min6 chord or min7 chord. Although min7 is shard by dorian and aeolian?

i would go going from the A natural minor (assuming were using C major) to Dorian?

thus switching from a key to a mode...or vice versa? correct?
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#6
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
hold on...

so..if i had min9 min7 or min11 to a min6 chord or min7 chord. Although min7 is shard by dorian and aeolian?

i would go going from the A natural minor (assuming were using C major) to Dorian?

thus switching from a key to a mode...or vice versa? correct?


Depends on what the other chords are. If I had a song which goes Dm7 - Am7 - E7, I have a song in A minor, using the A minor scale over all chords.

I'm not sure why you're not supplying the actual names of the chords, are you just hanging on one?
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#7
well what if it went....


min7, min6, min11, min9????

i would be in dorian because of the min 6 then it switch to aeolian after?
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Last edited by GoodOl'trashbag at Sep 27, 2011,
#8
The chord determines what scales you can do because the notes in the scale will or will not harmonize with the notes in the chord.

So, you said something about going from D Dorian to D Lydian. As you know, you can play D Dorian over that chord. So, if you want the lead to go from D Dorian to D Lydian, after your D minor 7th chord you could change to a D major 7th and play D Lydian over that. Of course, there are other ways to do it too.

Now you're getting into modal composition, Joe Satriani type chord progressions. If you wanted to write a two chord progression where you could play D Dorian over the first bar and D Lydian over the second bar, I would do it like this...

D Dorian (1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7)
D Lydian (1-2-3-#4-5-6-7)

So, we just listed the degrees for each scale relative to D. Looking at this, we can see that the notes that are different in each scale are the 3rd, 4th, and 7th intervals. So, if you were soloing over a D5add9, you could play D Dorian OR D Lydian whenever you wanted. However, in this case, we're writing a modal progression so we are looking at that to figure out how to get from D Dorian to D Lydian.

For this example, another progression would be...
D major #11 (1-3-4#) => D minor (1-b3-5)

Of course, in that case we would be going from D Lydian to D Dorian. As you can see we moved the third a half step down while we moved the fifth a half a step up. This particular progression brings out the Lydian sound a bit more because the #4, which distinguishes it from the other major modes. If we wanted to imply the Dorian mode more with that second chord, we'd add the 6, which distinguishes it from the other minor modes with their b6's.

Hope this helped.
#9
One thing im confused about...i get that chords determine the scale being used....but does the sound switch for you when you're playing something. Like you say.. 'then you would play the lydian scale". Well doesn't the chord determine how you sound. not you? (in this case)

i wasn't thinking d dorian to D lydian. i was thinking like D dorian to A Aeolian. <--- like the chords used in my previous post (min6, min7, min11,9)
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#10
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
well what if it went....


min7, min6, min11, min9????

i would be in dorian because of the min 6 then it switch to aeolian after?




What are the chords in your chord progression? Is it just D min7, D min6, D min 11 etc?
Are there other chords?

If I have a progression which goes D min 7 - A min 6, Bb min11, the answer is going to be very different.
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#11
good point. my bad. yea if i went Dmin7 D min6, THEN Amin11 and Amin9.

i would just from D dorian, then to A aeolian yes?


Also how can a power chord effect modes? Since its just a 5 chord then an octave? how would you compose say a metal styled, modal progression?

i figured id just post that question in this thread instead of making a new one.
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Last edited by GoodOl'trashbag at Sep 27, 2011,
#12
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
good point. my bad. yea if i went Dmin7 D min6, THEN Amin11 and Amin9.

i would just from D dorian, then to A aeolian yes?


Probably not, you are most likely in the key of D minor, playing D minor over all, or in the key of A minor, playing A minor over all.
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#13
yesterday to test it out i just kept playing a Dmin6 chord using just the D dorian position and it didn't sound like a regular d minor scale.

EDIT: i recorded me playing the Dmin6 chord on my looper, kept playing it back, then soloed over it, and it sounded nothing like a D minor.

EDIT2: i was just looking at the wiki article on pitch axis theory, and i saw in one of satch's songs, he goes from Lydian, Aeolian, Lydian, Mixolydian, All based around pitch axis of E

How do you shapes and notes like that and not sound out of wack..? i tried this on my looper, and it just sounds all sorts of messed up.

its probably me.
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Last edited by GoodOl'trashbag at Sep 27, 2011,
#14
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
yesterday to test it out i just kept playing a Dmin6 chord using just the D dorian position and it didn't sound like a regular d minor scale.

EDIT: i recorded me playing the Dmin6 chord on my looper, kept playing it back, then soloed over it, and it sounded nothing like a D minor.


Ok. Now try the actual chord progression you stated above (you know the one with the A minor) and see where it resolves.

I don't think you have a very firm grasp on tonal harmony dude, and that you should keep away from modes. You're skipping a lot of relevant information, most likely because you don't know that it's relevant.

Here's a tip for you. Just because you use out-of-key note does not make a song modal. 99.99999999% of songs are not modal. We have a modal sticky up the top for you to read, but I really doubt whether you are at the the point in your music theory knowledge to actually start to understand it.
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#15
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
yesterday to test it out i just kept playing a Dmin6 chord using just the D dorian position and it didn't sound like a regular d minor scale.

EDIT: i recorded me playing the Dmin6 chord on my looper, kept playing it back, then soloed over it, and it sounded nothing like a D minor.

EDIT2: i was just looking at the wiki article on pitch axis theory, and i saw in one of satch's songs, he goes from Lydian, Aeolian, Lydian, Mixolydian, All based around pitch axis of E

How do you shapes and notes like that and not sound out of wack..? i tried this on my looper, and it just sounds all sorts of messed up.

its probably me.

Try Dmin7 the 6th will make it want to go elsewhere

As for modes i question if you're ready for them
#16
I agree that one shouldn't be delving into something like pitch axis theory without already clearly having an understanding of tonality and modality - particularly their differences. The pitch axis theory (which is a fancy name Joe Satriani gave for something that already existed) is parallel modes as scales superimposed on a static root note, by changing a note or two to key modal notes, but it doesn't make sense to try to get into this without already understanding how music in a single mode works. Bringing the notion of a "chord progression" into it confuses matters.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Sep 28, 2011,
#17
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
good point. my bad. yea if i went Dmin7 D min6, THEN Amin11 and Amin9.

i would just from D dorian, then to A aeolian yes?

That would be, D Aeolian, D Dorian, A Aeolian. You do understand PA man. S'all good.
I was wondering about switching modes though, say i was play a Dm7 chord then i wanted to switch modes from dorian to lets say..lydian?

the chord progression then have to change to a M7 chord or a M7#11 chord ? yes, no?

Yes, exactly. It would change from a m6 chord to a maj7#11 chord.


Also how can a power chord effect modes? Since its just a 5 chord then an octave?

They don't. It's up to you to play with the idea. A good example is the lead break in Surfing With The Alien. Or in Erotic Cakes form the album of the same name, where the instruments take turns 3 or 4 times.
Last edited by mdc at Sep 28, 2011,
#18
I posted this a while ago:

Pitch axis is a simple concept that seems to be overcomplicated quite alot.

Basically modulating through keys of the same tonal center. For example E minor, to E Lydian, to E mixolydian etc.

Try this:


   Em9  Em9         Emaj7  Emaj7     E7sus E7sus         Em/maj7

Minor/Dorian      E Lydian         E Mixolydian    E melodic minor



(melodic minor not being a mode but it sounds cool).

Joe Satriani (used to) use this all the time. Check out the songs Not of this earth, Time, Satch boogie, Clouds race across the sky, Raspberry Jam, Engines of creation and Lords of karma.

Some other songs you might want to check out that use pitch axis:

Fly - Vinnie Moore
The Riddle - Steve vai (very good example)

Edit: found this post On pitch axis i did a while ago with a good example

Pitch axis theory is basically cycling through modes with the same tonal centre.

Lets take Not Of This Earth by Satriani for example.

The chords are Emaj13 Em7b6 Emaj13 and E7sus

Over the Emaj13 he plays Lydian, (the 11th isn't included in the chord)

Over the Em7b6 he plays Aeolian and over the E7sus he plays Mixolydian.

Check out the tapping break in Satch boogie too, another example of pitch axis.

Off the top of my head some other songs which use Pitch axis:

The riddle - Steve Vai
With Jupiter in Mind- Satch
Attack - Satch
Clouds race across the sky - Satch

The way Satch uses modes is really quite clever and inventive, like in flying in a blue dream (not pitch axis but still modal so i'l write it anyway).

The song puts a twist on the standard 12 bar blues progression. The dominant 7ths being replaced by a series of Lydian chords with some interesting voicings using a quintal harmony approach (Stacked 5ths with tone clusters). The expected move to F actually goes to Ab, then to G, to F and comes back to C.

Ab, G, and F lydian are used appropriately.
#19
Quote by griffRG7321
The dominant 7ths being replaced by a series of Lydian chords with some interesting voicings using a quintal harmony approach (Stacked 5ths with tone clusters).

TS, it sounds impressive but is very easy to perform on the instrument. An example of that would be this, in standard tuning. C5(#11 9). Let ring.

----
-------7-7-5
-----5-7-7-5
---5---5-5-5---
-3---------
---------

Galen Henson plays the part on an acoustic in open F.

Eric Caudieux has played the part on keyboards. YT.

In addition, check this out. http://foreverjoe.com/main.html
Last edited by mdc at Sep 28, 2011,
#20
Quote by mdc
That would be, D Aeolian, D Dorian, A Aeolian. You do understand PA man. S'all good.

Yes, exactly. It would change from a m6 chord to a maj7#11 chord.


They don't. It's up to you to play with the idea. A good example is the lead break in Surfing With The Alien. Or in Erotic Cakes form the album of the same name, where the instruments take turns 3 or 4 times.



you said i understand it and other people say i don't? that's weird.


i can do D dorian or Aeolian because they have a common chord right?

Btw thanks for all the replies guys, helping so far.
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#21
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
you said i understand it and other people say i don't? that's weird.

i can do D dorian or Aeolian because they have a common chord right?

Btw thanks for all the replies guys, helping so far.


MDC is "probably" approaching it from a CST angle. It's a form of visualising accidentals to the major and minor scales. So if you added the proviso to his post "but this is just a minor scale with accidentals accomodating for the clash with the chord, and the song is not modal" then we'd all be on the same page.
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#22
what does the acronym CST stand for?

Maybe im confusing myself with the mode switching thing....i just dont see how it goes from E lydian to aeolian to mxxolydian then back to lydian. all in E i get the pitch axis part, but i guess ill have to try it for myself and see what it sounds like.

EDIT: i studied not of this earth tab, and it was how i was thinking of it. i just didn't know if i was right.

ill have to look into more tomorrow don't got that much time right now.
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Last edited by GoodOl'trashbag at Sep 28, 2011,
#23
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
what does the acronym CST stand for?


Chord scale theory.

Here's a test.

I have a chord progression that goes Am - D - C - G - E7. What key/mode is it in? Identify out-of-key/mode chords. What scale/mode do I play over this progression? How would I modify the scale/mode to accommodate for any out-of-key/mode chords (if needed)?
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#25
Quote by greeneyegat
It's really hard to not try and answer >.<


Yes I know young one. It's just to test the TS. After he answers you're free to do the same.
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#27
Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
you said i understand it and other people say i don't? that's weird.


i can do D dorian or Aeolian because they have a common chord right?

Btw thanks for all the replies guys, helping so far.

Yes, they both have a common chord, so you could use either scale over it.

Strictly speaking though, the Aeolian mode has a chord unique to it, as does Dorian. For Dorian we know it's a m6 chord, in this case Dm6.

The difference between the two modes is that the 6th degree is flattened (or raised), depending which way your coming from, a chromatic step. So to construct a chord unique to the Aeolian mode, it would be a mb13 chord. But that just looks crazy.

Construct the aforementioned chord. Since you were using the note D, let's stick with that. So we have

D F Bb C

Look carefully at the notes and the intervals they form. It's a Bb triad with a added 9th. To keep are tonic firmly rooted on D, we can now label this chord as, Bb/D. D Aeolian fits perfectly over it.

Now if you saw Dmb13 or Bb/D scribbled on a chord chart while playing at a gig, the latter would be a lot easier for your brain, and subsequently your fingers to negotiate right?

-----6-
-3-6-6-11
-3-7-7-10
-3-8-0-12
-5-5---
-------10
Last edited by mdc at Sep 29, 2011,
#28
Over a minor triad or minor seventh, you can play any of the "minor" modes; Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian. The idea is that diatonically, that minor chord could be the ii, iii, or vi chord of three different keys.

Over a major triad, you can play any of the "major modes; Lydian, Mixolydian, and Ionian. The idea, again, is that that major chord could be the I, IV, or V chord of three different keys.

It depends on the intervals in the chord. Playing in A Mixolydian over an A major seventh would create dissonance every time you played the G in the scale because there is a G# in the chord, aka A Mixolydian has a flat seventh and an A major seventh has a natural seventh and intervals a semitone apart from each other create dissonance. If you like that dissonance, cool, it is just one note in the scale after all. It's not a terrible fit, especially if you avoid that note. However, you could play in A Lydian or A Ionian over A major seventh, because the notes in the chord fit perfectly into the scale.