#1
So I am in the first four weeks of Music Theory III class at college and we were just introduced to Secondary Dominant chords that are relevant to the key you're playing in. I know what they are and how they work for most keys but a few keys have been giving me trouble in terms of figuring out which notes to use on my homework. If anyone could help me along with this I would be VERY grateful.

Here they are and my answers (in notes I wrote down) beside them:

1) Key of "Eb" V/V, I answered F-A-C as the secondary dominant.

2) "G" V7/iii, I answered F#-A#-C#-E

3) "D" V7/vi, I answered F#-A#-C#-E

4) "Db" V7/IV, I answered Db-F-Ab-Cb

I guess the flat keys are giving me trouble as I don't know what secondary key to use and how that flat key translates into the notes I play.

The second part of the homework I could use help on involves the notes (all natural) G-B-D-F and I have to figure out what those notes would represent in each key. The key's they give are:

1) "Eb"- and I guessed that G-B-D-F would be a V7/V

2) "Bb"- I guessed G-B-D-F would represent a V7/ii

3) "Ab"- I worked out a V7/iii out of the G-B-D-F given

4) "G"- I worked out a V7/IV out of the G-B-D-F that was given.

If anybody could help me I would be very happy.

Thanks all,

Jason S.
#4
Apparently secondary dominant of a V/V is the Dominant of the Dominant.


Ok, so you go to the dominant tone in a chord following the V, such as in a V/iii...

Would you not just build a dominant 7 off the tonic that you find? It seems as though you have all of the first stuff correctly.

But, the second stuff seems incorrect to me. They gave you the V7/V and the V/ii and stuff, right? If so, I think I know how to do this...

You have the secondary's root G, and your using a V7/V. You would go down a Fifth to C, and C is the Fifth of the key of F. Your key should be F major.

For the next, you would have to go down a Major second, as the ii is built off the second, so G would go to F. Down a fifth from F would be Bb. Key should be Bb major.

Your third and fourth answers are what I also got.

I don't know the flats and sharps are supposed to affect this, but assuming that the structure of the Chord being formed is more important, it should be arbitrary.

To make it clear, I think you have the first one of the second part wrong.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Oct 1, 2011,
#5
Yeah I understand that a secondary dominant can only be found off of the dominate note of the key you are writing in. I was just having trouble finding the dominant of a flat key such as Eb, Db etc. Since there are flats in both those keys wouldn't using sharps be augmenting the secondary dominant chord as opposed to using just natural's?
#6
For the second part the original key is already given. For example, for the first one I got V7/V out of it because my teacher gave us the key of "Eb" so I went to Eb's fifth which is "Bb" (or more simply the key of B) and then found the dominant chord of Bb(B) is "G" so I figured since G-B-D-F is the chord given that V7/V is correct. The flats really screw me up but I remember my professor saying it doesn't matter if the key is sharped or flatted as long as I get the letter names dominant chord right.
#8
Quote by AiCPearlJam
Yeah I understand that a secondary dominant can only be found off of the dominate note of the key you are writing in. I was just having trouble finding the dominant of a flat key such as Eb, Db etc. Since there are flats in both those keys wouldn't using sharps be augmenting the secondary dominant chord as opposed to using just natural's?


Isn't the fifth of a key always a fifth up from the tonic? I don't see how sharps/flats would influence it, but feel free to attempt to explain.

Dominant of they key of Eb is B, and Db would be Ab. Doesn't this always apply? Even when you add sharps or flats, you're only affecting the Sub Dominant and the Leading Tone, relative to the tonic created.

I should mention that missed the date to test out of music theory, so I'm in Music Theory I at the moment, so I don't think I can claim too many credentials.

I'm going to stay in and rebuild my base knowledge a bit (Get super good at naming intervals and chords and other basic knowledge) while elaborating privately in more advanced theory, such as this. Hoping to test out of Music Theory II (Atleast) next semester.
#9
Quote by AiCPearlJam
For the second part the original key is already given. For example, for the first one I got V7/V out of it because my teacher gave us the key of "Eb" so I went to Eb's fifth which is "Bb" (or more simply the key of B) and then found the dominant chord of Bb(B) is "G" so I figured since G-B-D-F is the chord given that V7/V is correct. The flats really screw me up but I remember my professor saying it doesn't matter if the key is sharped or flatted as long as I get the letter names dominant chord right.


Dominant of Bb(B) would be F(F#/Gb).

BTW, what year are you? I want to know if I'm going to be set back severely by missing that test out date.

Thank you for helping me find this out BTW


No problem. I should also say that my knowledge of this is limited to whatever was on the Wikipedia article.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Oct 1, 2011,
#10
I'm in Music Theory III so it would be technically would be my third semester if I was a music major. I've been going to college for three and a half years now but this is my third consecutive semester taking a theory class.

BTW, that was a mental mistake thinking that was a V7/V, so with that cleared up I think it's a V7/vi.

http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/26secondarydominants.html

^^there's a great article s you can hear the differences in sound between a progression without secondary dominant's and one with them.
Last edited by AiCPearlJam at Oct 1, 2011,
#11
The first part is all right, but for the second part, basically what it's saying is that you have a G7 chord and asks which applied dominant it would represent in each key given. G7 is the dominant of C, so you would basically just find out what function C is serving in the given keys and then the G7 would be applying dominance to it. So, for Eb, C is vi, the G7 is V7/vi. For Bb the C is ii, the G7 is V/ii etc.

Also, the sharps and flats matter a lot... If, for example, you were given the key of D, the G7 would be acting as the V/VII (the VII being borrowed from the parallel minor).
#13
Wait for instance,

in Ab the chord G7 would be V7/IV, right? The dominant of Ab is Eb and G7 could be used at IV in the key of Eb? The Key's being flatted really throw me off for some reason. Regular natural keys I understand but once you throw in flatted keys I have no clue on how to adjust.
#14
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
The first part is all right, but for the second part, basically what it's saying is that you have a G7 chord and asks which applied dominant it would represent in each key given. G7 is the dominant of C, so you would basically just find out what function C is serving in the given keys and then the G7 would be applying dominance to it. So, for Eb, C is vi, the G7 is V7/vi. For Bb the C is ii, the G7 is V/ii etc.

Also, the sharps and flats matter a lot... If, for example, you were given the key of D, the G7 would be acting as the V/VII (the VII being borrowed from the parallel minor).


You made it seem so easy.

It took me a minute to realize how you got the results for the second part. But, I see that you start in D, find the Dominant which is A, and in order to go to G, you would need to go up a m7, which is the 7th degree of the minor scale.

I still don't see how sharps/flats are involved outside of just finding what keys are involved, it just seems like they're only involved in creating the tonic key.

Key is Ab and the applied dominant is G7? Dominant of Ab is Eb, Eb to G is a M3. It would be V/iii, if I'm getting the hang of this.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Oct 1, 2011,
#15
Ah, found an easier way to do this than I had been.

If we have C major and a V/VI, your supposed to find the VI first, which is A, and the new key, and then find the V of that, which is E.

I was going to the V of C, which is G major, and going up to the VI from there to get E. But that gives me the wrong key, but the right secondary.
#16
Quote by AiCPearlJam
Wait for instance,

in Ab the chord G7 would be V7/IV, right? The dominant of Ab is Eb and G7 could be used at IV in the key of Eb? The Key's being flatted really throw me off for some reason. Regular natural keys I understand but once you throw in flatted keys I have no clue on how to adjust.


No, it wouldn't be V/IV, it would be V/iii, because G7 is the V7 of C and C is functioning as the iii in Ab. You seem a bit confused. It doesn't matter what the dominant of Ab is, because that's just the dominant. A secondary dominant resolves to a NEW KEY AREA.

The G7 does not exist in Ab major (G is the seventh scale degree in Ab and would actually be a viidim chord (G Bb Db)), but you apply accidentals and/or new notes (namely a B natural, a D natural and an F) which create the appropriate tendency tones to C. That's it. A secondary dominant is a chord that is altered somehow from being diatonic in order to resolve to somewhere else.

The accidentals matter because THEY'RE THE WHOLE POINT! You alter the chords using accidentals to create the sound of a new resolution point.

EDIT: ^^Yeah, you generally want to start with the resolution point, because secondary dominants are all about arriving somewhere else, and it's very important to know where that something else is.
Last edited by jazz_rock_feel at Oct 1, 2011,