#1
this is purely theoretical, but think about it.

somebody tunes thier guitar to B standard, which is 5 semitones lower.

the mid knob on an amp is different for nearly every amp i know, but this is what i am thinking.

when you are in B standard, you bass knob on your amp is more functioning as a mid knob due to the frequency the note is being played because because it is so far droptuned.

the mids knob acting as a high due to the drop in pitch

your high knob is more of a presence

i just typed this out at mach 1 so if something is unclear i was getting it down before i forgot it.

so i guess what i am saying is that by tuning so low with a lot of amplifiers you are really going tonally against what they were made to do in some sense. is that always bad? no. but it can't always be good.

this is more just thoughts and to see if anybody knows of an amp that is more built for lower tunings so it still has full tweakability.

just thoughts. if you feel the need to move this thread, go right ahead.

WTLT 2014 GG&A

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#2
i thought about this many a times...never got a chance to test it since i usually play in standard
might be why some people look for specific amps for such thing so they dont sound all muddy
#3
Quote by supersac
i thought about this many a times...never got a chance to test it since i usually play in standard
might be why some people look for specific amps for such thing so they dont sound all muddy


i would like to test it out but i dont have any recording gear at all right now. pickups matter a lot at that point too, you put muddy pickups in a basswood guitar you shouldn't be expecting a crystal clear tone.

i would do it its just i dont really want to pick up a pack a 13's and do the work and get nill for results due to just a lack of clear reproduction between tuned up and down on a guitar.

i think unless we had like 10-20 people do it on the forum who are curious regular members all do it it wouldn't do much.

if we saw quite a few doing it though, we could anazize the trend, in seeing that.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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#4
Not theoretical here. I've spent days tweaking my amp with my eight-string with a low B and E. The EQ controls act in the same way; they boost or cut the frequencies that they're designed to adjust. A six-string E is around 80hz~, and my E is around 40hz~, so the first harmonic is still 80hz. And if you have a low B, which is, what... around 64hz? The first harmonic will still be well within an average guitar's range. Unless you have a seriously funky EQ control, it's nowhere near drastic as you think.

Case in point, I use the same EQ settings for my entire range, whether it's my low E or low low E across multiple guitars: low bass, boosted mids and slightly-above-average highs. The EQ settings really aren't that dynamic unless one's amp or EQ pedal has such intricate settings.

The issue of 'mud' comes from heavy bass. That's why guitars are guitars, and basses are basses; even if they play in the same octave, the way they're generally mixed means that the guitars handle the higher spectrum while the bass carries the... bass. Hence why I use low bass settings to reduce mud, whether it's for my low E or low low E. Emphasising the fundamental that low for distortion is where the 'mud' comes from. Distortion is all about harmonic overtones, and it's those overtones that the mid and high controls control.
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Last edited by Dayn at Oct 2, 2011,
#5
yea its not that big of a deal, one of my guitars is E standard/drop D. another is D tandard/drop C. and another is B standard/drop A.

I do not feel compelled to change anything on the Eq when i change guitars, maybe a bit more gain for the low notes, but i usually leave it because it adds to the brutality IMO
#6
Quote by Dayn
Not theoretical here. I've spent days tweaking my amp with my eight-string with a low B and E. The EQ controls act in the same way; they boost or cut the frequencies that they're designed to adjust. A six-string E is around 80hz~, and my E is around 40hz~, so the first harmonic is still 80hz. And if you have a low B, which is, what... around 64hz? The first harmonic will still be well within an average guitar's range. Unless you have a seriously funky EQ control, it's nowhere near drastic as you think.

Case in point, I use the same EQ settings for my entire range, whether it's my low E or low low E across multiple guitars: low bass, boosted mids and slightly-above-average highs. The EQ settings really aren't that dynamic unless one's amp or EQ pedal has such intricate settings.

The issue of 'mud' comes from heavy bass. That's why guitars are guitars, and basses are basses; even if they play in the same octave, the way they're generally mixed means that the guitars handle the higher spectrum while the bass carries the... bass. Hence why I use low bass settings to reduce mud, whether it's for my low E or low low E. Emphasising the fundamental that low for distortion is where the 'mud' comes from. Distortion is all about harmonic overtones, and it's those overtones that the mid and high controls control.



i do not want to sound rude, but on a 65watt SS amp, i had a transtube as well when i started out, i would think it may react more with the dynamics of the tubes.

understand i am certainly not trying to downgrade your gear just pointing out that SS clipping may act differently than tube.
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Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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#7
Quote by Seanthesheep
yea its not that big of a deal, one of my guitars is E standard/drop D. another is D tandard/drop C. and another is B standard/drop A.

I do not feel compelled to change anything on the Eq when i change guitars, maybe a bit more gain for the low notes, but i usually leave it because it adds to the brutality IMO


now you according to your profile are using a 6534 which is a tube amp and saying there is not a big difference.

and to the post above, i understand the complex harmonics as you mentioned and realize that they are in the same range to a regular to some extent.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#8
Rubbish.
My H-51 is in B standard.
I normally like a very dark tone. As in lots of bass and lower mids.
Boosting the bass on my H (B standard, 14's) makes it sound very boomy and flubby.
To keep it sounding tight and guitar like and make it cut through the mix, and to keep it from sounding like some weird frankenstein between a guitar and a bass, I need to cut bass like crazy and boost upper mids and treble. Which is the opposite of what I do with my MH (E standard, 10's).

Your bass, middle, treble knobs still do what the names suggest they do, since all those frequencies are still there when in B. Only difference is, boosting bass has a much bigger effect than when in E, since there is a lot more low end.
#9
Quote by trashedlostfdup
i do not want to sound rude, but on a 65watt SS amp, i had a transtube as well when i started out, i would think it may react more with the dynamics of the tubes.

understand i am certainly not trying to downgrade your gear just pointing out that SS clipping may act differently than tube.

Perhaps, but dynamics and clipping have nothing to do with how EQ shapes the soundscape, distorted or clean.
Ibanez RG2228 w/ EMG808Xs | Line 6 POD HD500 | Mackie HD1221
#10
im pretty sure any person that has played a standard tuned guitar through a decent amp with a good eq, then a downtuned through the same amp.

for me anyway, i usually have to roll a bit off the gain (due to EMG's), definatley lower the treble, raise the mids, and bass eh not really changing to much.

and im sure the 5 select-able mid frequencies on each channel on my amp doesnt simplifiy things @_@
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#11
when you tune your guitar down you aren't really going down so low that it affects the tone controls. even if you tune your E all the way down to a lower E, it still sounds way different than a bass guitar playing that E.
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#12
you gotta remember, anything below about 160Hz on distorted guitars isn't much use in the mix anyway, So you're just focusing on different harmonics.
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#13
well when you down tune from E to B, the only thing that changes is that you mow have a low B. the rest of the strings are still E standard. your amp has to be pretty damn loose imo if you need to re EQ, even a properly EQ'd recto shouldnt have a problem with a low B.

if we were talking a low E or F# and/or a SS amp then maybe i wrong, but thats what i think about a decent guitar and decent tube amp.
#15
The bass control on most amps is centered around 100 hz. The usual low E is 330 hz, and drop D is 293, both well within the range of that control. Even drop G still puts you at 98, right on top of a Marshall tone stack's bass control frequency. The voicing may be a different story (that Tweed Champ probably can't give you the bass response you want for drop tunings under any circumstances), but you're not going to be able to tune yourself down below the EQ range of an amp.
#16
it doesn't matter how far you are droptuned.

the frequency of the knobs don't change. they are filters with a single first order drop.

they'll attenuate the same frequencies no matter what your guitar is putting out.

on a really low droptuned guitar the bass control becomes set to 0 control.


the presence control is usually in the nfb. it doesn't function the same as your eq knobs at all.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#17
Quote by GS LEAD 5
^Depends on the tone youre after. If youre normal settings in E are already dark, then in B itll turn to mud on the low B.


my amp is fsairly bright to begin with, then the speakers are bright too, so its fairly ideal for downtuning, but also a bit too bright sometimes
#18
Quote by GS LEAD 5
Rubbish.
My H-51 is in B standard.
I normally like a very dark tone. As in lots of bass and lower mids.
Boosting the bass on my H (B standard, 14's) makes it sound very boomy and flubby.
To keep it sounding tight and guitar like and make it cut through the mix, and to keep it from sounding like some weird frankenstein between a guitar and a bass, I need to cut bass like crazy and boost upper mids and treble. Which is the opposite of what I do with my MH (E standard, 10's).

Your bass, middle, treble knobs still do what the names suggest they do, since all those frequencies are still there when in B. Only difference is, boosting bass has a much bigger effect than when in E, since there is a lot more low end.


i fully realize that the eq filter is the same and was not debating that, i was debating the function of the EQ being that it is on a static range that the amp responds different like GS said, how he EQ's a way droptuned is different than in standard tuning.

AM - i know what you are saying and i guess my query didn't quite pop out in my first post, i realize the tonestack doesn't change it's freguencies in reflection to the notes on the guitar.

what i was more wondering is if you tune way the hell down do you run your amp differently?
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#19
Quote by trashedlostfdup
i fully realize that the eq filter is the same and was not debating that, i was debating the function of the EQ being that it is on a static range that the amp responds different like GS said, how he EQ's a way droptuned is different than in standard tuning.

AM - i know what you are saying and i guess my query didn't quite pop out in my first post, i realize the tonestack doesn't change it's freguencies in reflection to the notes on the guitar.

what i was more wondering is if you tune way the hell down do you run your amp differently?


well ya but it depends more on the amp then anything.

I usually turn the bass down and turn the treble and mids way up.

but some amps can handle a higher bass setting then others.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer