#1
I learned a new scale today, the phrygian dominant scale, which i believe has the step pattern.

H - W+H - H - W -H - W - W

So in E that would be

E F G# A B C D

So it's basically just normal phyrgian mode with a major 3rd i think.


Im trying to build chords using the scale and im using the same approach as i would to a normal major or minor sclae so here it goes. Im just gonna do the 1st 3rd and 5th atm

1- E

Notes -E G# B

Chord name - E major

2- F

Notes - F A C

Chord name - F Major

3- G#

Notes- G# B D

Chord name - G# minor dim 5th ????????????????

4- A

Notes- A C E

Chord name - A minor

5- B

Notes- B D F

Chord - B minor dim 5th ?????????????

6- C

Notes- C E G#

Chord - Cmajor Aug 5th ????????????????

7- D

Notes- D F A

Chord- D minor


So to summarize

In the key of E Phyrgian dominant the chords would be

1 E Major
2 F Major
3 G# Minor diminished 5th
4 A minor
5 B minor diminished 5th
6 C Major augmented 5th
7 D minor


Obviosly i can play around with suspensions and added 9ths etc.


So is everything i said correct or a complete fail ?

ps. don't be too harsh, im fairly new to theory.
#2
S'all fine. You've built the triads correctly but just named the 3rd, 5th and 6th degrees wrong.
#3
Quote by mdc
S'all fine. You've built the triads correctly but just named the 3rd, 5th and 6th degrees wrong.



What would they be called if you don't mind me asking ?

Not because im too lazy to work it out for myself but if you told me the names i could then work out why they are called them names myself
#5
Quote by Cavalcade
The "minor diminished fifth" chords are just called "diminished", and the "major augmented fifth" chord is just "augmented". It keeps things simple.



oh yes of course, silly me
#6
There is no "key" of Phrygian Dominant.

What you have done is build triads off the scale itself, that may or may not be a valid way of doing it. Take the blues scale for example, how many wacked out chords would you get just with the b5 as part of the "triads"?

Best,

Sean
#7
Quote by Sean0913
There is no "key" of Phrygian Dominant.

What you have done is build triads off the scale itself, that may or may not be a valid way of doing it. Take the blues scale for example, how many wacked out chords would you get just with the b5 as part of the "triads"?

Best,

Sean



Would the key just be E then ?

and how else could you decide what chords were bulit off the scale ?
#8
Quote by mrbabo91
Would the key just be E then ?

and how else could you decide what chords were bulit off the scale ?



the E phrygian dom scale is the 5th degree of the A harmonic scale ... so in this case it would be the A harmonic scale as its source.. its a very "out sounding" scale and infers diminished 7th type sounds and dominate 7b9 sounds..so it can be very flexable as a symmetricial sounding scale...try playing it in minor 3rds E then G then Bb etc and you will feel the strange pull of the scale..

its an altered scale its not a "key" .. if we back track..the Prime key is C Major..and the relative minor A Minor..is now altered on the 7th step G#..produces the A Harmonic scale.

hope this helps

wolf
#10
The root note is E. Since he's asking about Phrygian dominant, and not harmonic minor, let's assume he means Phrygian dominant, and not harmonic minor, because there are pieces (and lots of them) where the center of tonality is the E, instead of the A. So, the key would be E major, since there's a major third in the scale.
#11
The key would depend on where the chord progession resolves.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#13
Quote by Cavalcade
Again, assume it resolves to an E, since that's what he's asking.


No he's not. He just has a template of chords built off a scale. If it resolves to E maj (and is not I-II vamp), then the key will be E major. However no chord progression is given, and with the chords above you could create many progressions in different keys.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#14
Quote by AlanHB
No he's not. He just has a template of chords built off a scale. If it resolves to E maj (and is not I-II vamp), then the key will be E major. However no chord progression is given, and with the chords above you could create many progressions in different keys.


if i had a progression

E major
A minor
F major
A minor

would that likely resolve on E ?
#15
Quote by mrbabo91
if i had a progression

E major
A minor
F major
A minor

would that likely resolve on E ?


Nope. Firmly on A minor. Key = A minor, scale = A minor. Over the E you can use a raised 7th accidental in the A minor scale to avoid the clash with the E major 3rd. The resulting scale can be referred to as the A harmonic minor scale.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#17
Quote by AlanHB
Nope. Firmly on A minor. Key = A minor, scale = A minor. Over the E you can use a raised 7th accidental in the A minor scale to avoid the clash with the E major 3rd. The resulting scale can be referred to as the A harmonic minor scale.


Ah so is the reson a change between an Emajor chord and A minor chord sounds 'eastern' because of the A harmonic minor scale not the E phrygian dominant scale ?

What about these progressions instead ?

F major
G#Diminsished
F major
E major


E major
F major
E major
A minor

where would they likely resolve ?
#19
Quote by Cavalcade
The root note is E. Since he's asking about Phrygian dominant, and not harmonic minor, let's assume he means Phrygian dominant, and not harmonic minor, because there are pieces (and lots of them) where the center of tonality is the E, instead of the A. So, the key would be E major, since there's a major third in the scale.

Quote by AlanHB
No he's not. He just has a template of chords built off a scale. If it resolves to E maj (and is not I-II vamp), then the key will be E major. However no chord progression is given, and with the chords above you could create many progressions in different keys.

The TS wants to use the Phrygian Dominant mode. If he comes up with a progression that resolves to E, he'll be able to use that mode, and consequently won't be playing in a key, but a mode.

You're both saying the key would be E Major, which would need 4#'s in the signature, providing the need to notate many natural signs throughout the score (if there was one).

E Phrygian Dominant is a non diatonic mode, who's parent is A Harmonic Minor. As we all know, the same key signature is shared for the three types of minor scale. Incidentally, there will be no symbols in the standard key signature, requiring the need for just one accidental in the score.

The other option is to use a non-standard key signature with a # symbol on G in the clef.

Obviously, a key signature and key are two different things, hence the TS will be playing the E Phrygian Dominant mode, with said (standard or non-standard) signature.

in addition, if he's going to use chords that are diatonic to E Phrygian Dominant, a E Major key signature isn't gonna make any sense at all, since the chords are totally different.
Last edited by mdc at Oct 4, 2011,
#20
^^^^ take note of the chord progressions TS has started posting. None have been in the phygian (or any) mode thus far.

TS, I think it's time to learn your fundamentals. If you have to ask us where your chord progressions resolve, you're not ready for modes yet.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#21
Yeah I know that, I wasn't talking about those progressions. TS, for some examples, listen to War and Redshift Riders by Joe Satriani.
#22
Quote by mdc
Yeah I know that, I wasn't talking about those progressions. TS, for some examples, listen to War and Redshift Riders by Joe Satriani.


I checked out war and it appears that he's just playing over an E5-Fmajor vamp for the majority of the song.
#23
It's that simple. Notice how a certain 3rd isn't included in either of those chords. It leaves you free to play around with both E Phrygian and E Phrygian Dominant.
#24
You can look at harmonies in the Phrygian Dominant scale but the more chords you use to make you're progression, the more it will pull things back to the Harmonic Minor it was derived from.

For instance the E Phrygian Dominant scale is a mode that solely fit E major or E7.

If you figure out the triads you've done enough, except for rudimentary practices or challenges. But for practical purposes there isn't any real reason to figure them past the triad...due to the fact that the more harmony you add in to a progression, the most it will sound like the Harmonic Minor scale it was derived from.

Modes are Modes and the same two rules apply regardless if they are derived from the Major scale, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc...:

1. The more diatonically connected chords in your progression, the less modal something is

2. The less diatonically connected chords you have in your progression, the more modal something is

Those are usually the two factors that determine whether it's really a mode or the scale the mode was derived from.

I have two pretty comprehensive tutorials on the Phrygian Dominant scale that will be beneficial to you, have at them...

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/PhryDom/PhryDomTOC.htm

and

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide2/indslidehome_frames.htm

They explain the use of it purely as a mode. They do show the nice harmony moves in the scale too, but they are all coming back to the I chord. They also show the whole diminished concept found in the scale.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Oct 4, 2011,
#25
Quote by MikeDodge
You can look at harmonies in the Phrygian Dominant scale but the more chords you use to make you're progression, the more it will pull things back to the Harmonic Minor it was derived from.

For instance the E Phrygian Dominant scale is a mode that solely fit E major or E7.

If you figure out the triads you've done enough, except for rudimentary practices or challenges. But for practical purposes there isn't any real reason to figure them past the triad...due to the fact that the more harmony you add in to a progression, the most it will sound like the Harmonic Minor scale it was derived from.

Modes are Modes and the same two rules apply regardless if they are derived from the Major scale, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, etc...:

1. The more diatonically connected chords in your progression, the less modal something is

2. The less diatonically connected chords you have in your progression, the more modal something is

Those are usually the two factors that determine whether it's really a mode or the scale the mode was derived from.

I have two pretty comprehensive tutorials on the Phrygian Dominant scale that will be beneficial to you, have at them...

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/PhryDom/PhryDomTOC.htm

and

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide2/indslidehome_frames.htm

They explain the use of it purely as a mode. They do show the nice harmony moves in the scale too, but they are all coming back to the I chord. They also show the whole diminished concept found in the scale.



Thanks, i'll be sure to check those out

so what your basically saying is if i have a Emaj - Fmaj progression it will nicely resolve on E but if i start adding chords like A minor or D minor to the progression, it will always pull towards A
#26
Quote by mrbabo91
Thanks, i'll be sure to check those out

so what your basically saying is if i have a Emaj - Fmaj progression it will nicely resolve on E but if i start adding chords like A minor or D minor to the progression, it will always pull towards A


No, if you add extra chords generally the pull towards the tonal center (irrespective of where it is) will become too great and the progression will cease to be modal.

But that will not make sense to you if you can't figure out where progressions resolve anyway.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#27
Quote by AlanHB
No, if you add extra chords generally the pull towards the tonal center (irrespective of where it is) will become too great and the progression will cease to be modal.

But that will not make sense to you if you can't figure out where progressions resolve anyway.



Yes. there is a genuine gap in my knowledge here. Some progressions are much easier to figure out than others for me.

What would be the next thing to study? Cadences?
#28
Quote by mrbabo91
Yes. there is a genuine gap in my knowledge here. Some progressions are much easier to figure out than others for me.

What would be the next thing to study? Cadences?


Major an minor scales, harmonising them to form chords and keys.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#29
Quote by AlanHB
Major an minor scales, harmonising them to form chords and keys.


I think i can already do that but there must be something that im not applying to resolving progressions.
#30
Quote by AlanHB
Major an minor scales, harmonising them to form chords and keys.

TS you know how to harmonize already, since you've done that with the Phrygian Domiannt scale.

Your own suggestion about cadences will be ideal. But study them within the major scale only. Then move on to the minor scale.
#31
Quote by mdc
TS you know how to harmonize already, since you've done that with the Phrygian Domiannt scale.

Your own suggestion about cadences will be ideal. But study them within the major scale only. Then move on to the minor scale.


OK. As a heavy metal guy its all too tempting to study the minor scale first
#32
Quote by mrbabo91
I think i can already do that but there must be something that im not applying to resolving progressions.


I think if you could do it you could be able to find where a progression resolves. As MCT says, it seems like you have learnt to harmonise. Start by doing this with the major and minor scales.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#33
Oops! Sorry, I didn't see this post...
Quote by mrbabo91
I think i can already do that but there must be something that im not applying to resolving progressions.

Quote by AlanHD
I think if you could do it you could be able to find where a progression resolves. As MCT says, it seems like you have learnt to harmonise. Start by doing this with the major and minor scales.

That's pretty impressive actually, since it's not the simplest scale in the world to harmonize. TS, seems like you jumped in at the deep end without realizing it, but you still did it right.

Have a nose at the chord progression section here. http://www.musictheory.net/lessons
Last edited by mdc at Oct 5, 2011,
#34
Learning your chord in the Key is great, but yes, then learn cadences for sure as well as borrow chords. They are one of the most important things for understand how music works and the art of tension and release/resolve.
#35
Yeah, Mike nailed it - learn Borrowed chords, and Modal Interchange if you have a strong idea of Diatonic Harmony. Then learn and apply and analyize cadences. At the Academy, we deal with the following pretty much in a group, around the same time in our lectures:

Modal Interchange
Additional Ideas regarding Tonal Possibilities (proprietary information that I will not disclose here, but it goes beyond Modal Interchange)
Cadences
Transposition
Modulation
Secondary Dominants
Harmonic Analysis


Being able to understand and apply most of these ideas, in harmonic analysis, will easily "grow" you towards understanding what is "really" happening in most pieces of music.

Best,

Sean