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#1
Hey guys,

So, my mum is going through a divorce and believes that her drinking may have been a factor that caused her marriage to break down. So despite not actually being an alcoholic she has been going to AA meetings for the last couple of months to try and figure out a way to control/cut out drinking.

Now I had no qualms with this initially and welcomed the free house when she was at the meetings. However, at AA you get given a book to read which is supposed to guide you.

I had a little look through and the chapter "We The Agnostics" took my eye. Expecting to see something about how your beliefs don't matter or that you don't need a God to help you, I turned to the start of the chapter.

Get in, first page, "More often than not, will power is not enough to overcome the problem of alcoholism". What the ****? That is probably near-on the most destructive piece of advice you could give an alcoholic surely. It goes on to say that those who are religious are more likely to sort out their problems because a higher power helps them.

This was followed by page after page of loaded language clearly designed to batter the reader into a state of self-hatred before going on to say effectively "Oh, you know all that science, that all faith anyway! Open your mind to God, he gives you super bitching powers to overcome alcoholism". Followed by some shit about freeing yourself from prejudices, especially of organized religion.

It was like reading Westboro baptist church propaganda if they did AA meetings.

So, anyway, end of rant. Let's give this thread a point.

Do you agree that pushing religion on people in such a vulnerable state is right?

Do you think that converting people is okay if it means they are more likely to overcome alcoholism?

Do you think that pushing religion on fundamentally unstable people should even be allowed?

inb4 You expect me to read: All that shit- by you
#2
People need to read G. Alan Marlatt's work.

OT: AA are run by overzealous religious nuts.
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#3



I don't see a problem with it.
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#4
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that AA is a religious thing
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#5
Quote by barden1069
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that AA is a religious thing


Indeed, everything in the USA is a religious thing.
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I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#6
AA has helped a lot of people. If a person thinks the a "higher power" will help them quit, well good for them. If it does help them quit, the person criticizing their method of recovery is an asshole.
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#7
Quote by willT08
Do you agree that pushing religion on people in such a vulnerable state is right?
No.

Do you think that converting people is okay if it means they are more likely to overcome alcoholism?

They are no more likely to overcome alcoholism than people in other, secular support groups. So no.

Do you think that pushing religion on fundamentally unstable people should even be allowed?

Sure, why not. It may even help a few of em.

Words go here.
#8
Quote by Neo Evil11
Indeed, everything in the USA is a religious thing.


This isn't even in the USA, it's just outside London in a place where the vast majority are atheists.
#9
Quote by willT08
This isn't even in the USA, it's just outside London in a place where the vast majority are atheists.


Since when is the AA an international cult? I missed the memo.

I think the AA is such a widely known organisation that every alcoholic no matter what his background is, goes to it. I agree with your criticism, but if it really was a problem for these people they would have started a new organisation, wouldn't they?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#10
I say if you're mom is finding this method to help her, and if she believes in it, then so what? FREE HOUSE!

Now, if she wants you to suddenly start going to the same church that runs the AA meetings then you should consult the pit.
"CHOOSE YOUR FATE AND DIE!!"


-- Do as I say, not as I do. --
#11
Yeah, I don't understand why courts are allowed to mandate AA meetings. That's clearly endorsing religion.
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#12
Quote by rgrockr
Yeah, I don't understand why courts are allowed to mandate AA meetings. That's clearly endorsing religion.

Wow I never thought about that. That's actually really ****ed up.
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And pedals!



"Shiva opens her arms now..
...to make sure I don't get too far"
#13
Quote by barden1069
Wow I never thought about that. That's actually really ****ed up.


Look at your money.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#14
Quote by Neo Evil11
Look at your money.

Yeah I always knew that the US isn't that great about the whole "separation of church and state" thing but I never connected that with court-mandated AA. Just another screwed up thing here, I suppose...
Gear
Highway One Tele (w/Custom Shop 51 Nocaster pickups)
Standard Tele (modded to Nashville specs)
Reverend Roundhouse

Orange Rockerverb 50 MKI
Vox AC4c1
Jet City JCA20H

And pedals!



"Shiva opens her arms now..
...to make sure I don't get too far"
#15
Penn & Teller did an episode of Bullshit on AA. Seems like it's far more effective for religious recruitment than overcoming alcoholism.
#16
Quote by Onzaso
I say if you're mom is finding this method to help her, and if she believes in it, then so what? FREE HOUSE!

Now, if she wants you to suddenly start going to the same church that runs the AA meetings then you should consult the pit.


Well so far it hasn't really made any difference with her drinking (it was never a problem anyway, except her asshat husband bitched like a girl because she was "mean" to him when she was drunk i.e. told him to get off his ass and at least try to get a job)

But as far the religion thing goes, luckily my mum already has some silly notion of the universe so I don't think she'll become a member of any organized religion. But it was painful to hear her say "Yeah, I think there's something out there. That's why I have my buddha statues, and my candles"

"But mum, you're not a buddhist"

"I know, but it's good to have them around"

At least her views are kept to herself at the moment....
#17
Quote by Jackintehbox
Penn & Teller did an episode of Bullshit on AA. Seems like it's far more effective for religious recruitment than overcoming alcoholism.

This. IIRC the success rate for AA is like 2%, which is the same as just using your willpower to stop drinking.
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#18
Quote by willT08


Do you agree that pushing religion on people in such a vulnerable state is right?

Do you think that converting people is okay if it means they are more likely to overcome alcoholism?

Do you think that pushing religion on fundamentally unstable people should even be allowed?

1. No, that's taking advantage of someone in a weaker state than you, which is fucked up.
2. No, same reason as #1.
3. Free speech and free press. We can't take their rights away, that would be fucked up too. I find it morally wrong to take advantage of someone like that, but they are allowed to say whatever they want, and it's the listeners choice wether or not to buy into their crazy ideas.
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#19
Quote by vanhailin

3. Free speech and free press. We can't take their rights away, that would be fucked up too. I find it morally wrong to take advantage of someone like that, but they are allowed to say whatever they want, and it's the listeners choice wether or not to buy into their crazy ideas.

That would be all well and good if it wasn't a common sentence for DUI's.
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#20
Quote by willT08

At least her views are kept to herself at the moment....


She might just be doing it to make herself feel better, or she could be searching for spiritual enlightenment/fulfillment. In any case, she doesn't sound like she is doing it because her life is being threatened by alcoholsim. And that's good news.

I can see where they're going with court-mandated AA. although it is a total endorsment of religion, in my opinion, a rehabilitated AA christian is better off to society than an alcoholic. This is under the assumption that not ALL religious people are bigoted zealots. Cause they're not.
"CHOOSE YOUR FATE AND DIE!!"


-- Do as I say, not as I do. --
#21
Quote by shikkaka
AA has helped a lot of people. If a person thinks the a "higher power" will help them quit, well good for them. If it does help them quit, the person criticizing their method of recovery is an asshole.

There are statistics that show people have a higher chance of beating alcoholism WITHOUT AA then with it. All AA does is takes personal responsibility away from the person and brainwashes them into a warped religious ideal.

I may be an asshole for criticizing AA but I'm also a recovering alcoholic and I didn't need AA or god to do it for me. I decided to take responsibility for my actions, something many alcoholics can't/won't do. All AA (or any of the anonymous organizations) do is screw people up even further by telling them that only an invisible sky daddy can cure them.

It really is completely fucked up.
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#22
Quote by vanhailin
1. No, that's taking advantage of someone in a weaker state than you, which is fucked up.
2. No, same reason as #1.
3. Free speech and free press. We can't take their rights away, that would be fucked up too. I find it morally wrong to take advantage of someone like that, but they are allowed to say whatever they want, and it's the listeners choice wether or not to buy into their crazy ideas.


I'm not sure about this. Clearly free speech and press is absolutely right, however, in this case where the listener will always be someone who is ill and desperate to sort themselves out, I'm not sure it's okay.

To me it's like, we don't always let people with mental issues make decisions about the treatment they receive in a hospital, because they are in no state to make such important decisions. I don't see how a desperate alcoholic is in any state to make decisions about converting to organized religion.

Now I realise that treatment in a hospital is not the same as converting, however the point that we don't (and sometimes shouldn't) let people who are mentally unstable make life-changing decisions is what i'm trying to get at. And in this case the only way to avoid it is to stop religion from being as heavily promoted as it is now.

However, I've not entirely made up my mind about this, so feel free to pick holes in my thinking.
#24
Quote by Crazyedd123
Why would someone do this?
[Pink Floyd - Money]





Seriously though...


"CHOOSE YOUR FATE AND DIE!!"


-- Do as I say, not as I do. --
#25
Quote by Onzaso



Seriously though...



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#26
Quote by Crazyedd123
GET AWAY!!!



YOU ARE MINE!
"CHOOSE YOUR FATE AND DIE!!"


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#27
Quote by Neo Evil11
Since when is the AA an international cult? I missed the memo.

I think the AA is such a widely known organisation that every alcoholic no matter what his background is, goes to it. I agree with your criticism, but if it really was a problem for these people they would have started a new organisation, wouldn't they?

Yeah, because alcoholics are great at organizing shit for themselves.
#28
It's very common for addicts to cross-addict. For example, if someone's coming off of a speed or opiate addiction, they're very likely to start smoking much more heavily than they did before. Someone who's quitting smoking is likely to start drinking a lot more coffee, or even rely on chocolate (not exactly a drug, but some studies have shown it to be more similar than one would think). In this case, AA is just setting people up to become religious addicts, which, as silly as it sounds, is a very real thing.
#29
Quote by herby190
It's very common for addicts to cross-addict. For example, if someone's coming off of a speed or opiate addiction, they're very likely to start smoking much more heavily than they did before. Someone who's quitting smoking is likely to start drinking a lot more coffee, or even rely on chocolate (not exactly a drug, but some studies have shown it to be more similar than one would think). In this case, AA is just setting people up to become religious addicts, which, as silly as it sounds, is a very real thing.

This is very true.

This is also why I disagree with AA very strongly, as it doesn't try to fix the source of the addiction, but just replace the addiction with another.
#30
Quote by herby190
AA is just setting people up to become religious addicts, which, as silly as it sounds, is a very real thing.


This is a sad revelation to me. But very true indeed.
"CHOOSE YOUR FATE AND DIE!!"


-- Do as I say, not as I do. --
#31
It took this long for you to find out that AA is founded in religion? Wow.
#32
Quote by Avedas
It took this long for you to find out that AA is founded in religion? Wow.


No, it took me this long for me to realize that AA becomes a medium for alcoholics to transfer their addiction to religion. I hadn't thought of it that way.
"CHOOSE YOUR FATE AND DIE!!"


-- Do as I say, not as I do. --
#33
ITT: people that know nothing about AA.
*-)
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#34
Quote by CoreysMonster
This is very true.

This is also why I disagree with AA very strongly, as it doesn't try to fix the source of the addiction, but just replace the addiction with another.

Yeah this is true, but at least religious addicts can hold a job.
#35
Quote by shikkaka
AA has helped a lot of people. If a person thinks the a "higher power" will help them quit, well good for them. If it does help them quit, the person criticizing their method of recovery is an asshole.



I am insulted by the fact the AA is attempting to sell religion to people who are at their lowest. I remember looking at this a few years back and being disgruntled by this.

Up top, why is he an asshole? If you don't like something, why shouldn't you be able to criticize it. Thats free speech.
#36
Quote by willT08
I'm not sure about this. Clearly free speech and press is absolutely right, however, in this case where the listener will always be someone who is ill and desperate to sort themselves out, I'm not sure it's okay.

To me it's like, we don't always let people with mental issues make decisions about the treatment they receive in a hospital, because they are in no state to make such important decisions. I don't see how a desperate alcoholic is in any state to make decisions about converting to organized religion.

Now I realise that treatment in a hospital is not the same as converting, however the point that we don't (and sometimes shouldn't) let people who are mentally unstable make life-changing decisions is what i'm trying to get at. And in this case the only way to avoid it is to stop religion from being as heavily promoted as it is now.

However, I've not entirely made up my mind about this, so feel free to pick holes in my thinking.

I get what you're saying, but you still can't just go around picking and choosing who gets to keep their rights and who loses rights.
As ****ed up as what AA is doing it's legal and they have every right to do it.
Quote by rgrockr
That would be all well and good if it wasn't a common sentence for DUI's.

What?
I smoke like Rasta, got hair like pasta
I be sippin' on them shots then bustin' rhymes like Busta


Load up the bong, crank up the song, let the informa call 911
#37
AA worked for my Dad. BUT. He now thinks all people that drink need to be saved from their inevitable doom into death by alcohol or drugs. When my mother, his soon to be ex wife, stayed out for one night of drinking he almost got his head shot off because he didn't trust her with some pretty good people. That night my Dad barged into my mothers friends house, who by the way was a cop, and almost got his brains shot out.

I love my dad but he is a nut mainly because of AA. I'd let your mom do it. Just be wary of the brainwashing.
#38
You guys are so oversensitive about religion.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#39
Quote by captaincrunk
Yeah this is true, but at least religious addicts can hold a job.


not if their line of work is porn.
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#40
Quote by element4433
ITT: people that know nothing about AA.

This.
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