#1
Ok so heres the story, ive been researching alot of bands lately and when i went to the wiki of the lead guitarist for british extreme black metal band Cradle of Filth, i came up on this- "To tell you the truth... I don't jam. I've always played what actually I see in my head. Therefore, when I play, I don't use any specific scales or anything in order or that's musically correct or anything... I’ve always concentrated on mixing lead-oriented riffs, but in like a rhythmic sense. That's the way I've always been because I've never really been interested in doing ultra-fast lead work. I've always mixed the two up. Just concentrating on the 16th notes and stuff on the right hand, making sure it all sinks in. It’s the guitar and it’s the way we dress onstage, it’s all part of this troupe, this uniformed-like togetherness... It just comes out dark as ****". So this would explain their unique and hellish sounding melodies, so do alot of sucessful musicians actually have their own "styles" of playing that go outside mainstream music and music theories? And also, how would someone come up with their own style that makes them different then everybody else?
#2
Quote by NewYngwie
...british extreme black metal band Cradle of Filth... unique and hellish sounding melodies...


CoF draws from their influences. All their music is a product of what came before them- in their case, second-wave black metal bands like Mayhem or Gorgoroth, who were in turn influenced by the first wave (Bathory, Venom, Celtic Frost). That's how most music is made, and always has been made.
Last edited by Cavalcade at Oct 19, 2011,
#3
Iced Earth
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#5
I'm just gonna throw it out there that, if you think CoF is 'extreme metal' or 'unique', you haven't been studying very hard.

OT: If you learn theory and start diving into genres, you'll find there's a LOT more territory than you think that hasn't been touched, and even if it has, everyone has their own perspective on it. And even if they don't, there are a lot of songs (Enter Sandman...) that are direct rip-offs of other pieces of music. Don't worry about it.
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Last edited by Hail at Oct 19, 2011,
#7
Quote by NewYngwie
so do alot of sucessful musicians actually have their own "styles" of playing that go outside mainstream music and music theories? And also, how would someone come up with their own style that makes them different then everybody else?


1 - Cradle of Filth are not outside the mainstream. Their name was mentioned in the IT crowd and Dani Filth was on a British TV music quiz show... in prime time. If you want music that's outside of the mainstream then I suggest looking outside of wikipedia for your knowledge.

2 - There is nothing based on the standard 12 western musical notes that is outside of music theory: it is descriptive, not prescriptive.

3 - A lot of people have a very recognisable style but making one is an extremely hard thing to do. I don't think many people think "Ok, now I'm going to do something original!". They just play the music they hear in their heads and go from there. You can't really be different from everyone else though, everyone's playing is similar to someone's in some way.

Quote by Cavalcade
1) Spam triplets
2) ???
3) Profit!


Galloping =/= triplets.
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#8
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr

Galloping =/= triplets.

My bad, my bad. People call them triplets so often that it must have rubbed off on me. *slaps self*
Oh, also:
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
it is descriptive, not prescriptive.

That's a nice way to put it. I'll have to remember that for the next time someone calls theory a set of "rules" (which won't take long). I've always said, it just describes what's already there.
Last edited by Cavalcade at Oct 19, 2011,
#9
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Cradle of Filth are not outside the mainstream
i consider them outside mainstream, as my definition of mainstream is slipknot, gaga, bieber and a7x
#11
Quote by NewYngwie
i consider them outside mainstream, as my definition of mainstream is slipknot, gaga, bieber and a7x

for the love of god listen to more music, this is why UG users have their own cliche
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#12
So this would explain their unique and hellish sounding melodies,


Does it explain why they have unique and hellish sounding melodies?

"Guy plays what he wants to play... sounds like that guys playing!"

Who knew?

I would dispute both unique and hellish sounding regardless.

so do alot of sucessful musicians actually have their own "styles" of playing that go outside mainstream music and music theories?


Well, no. Not really.

There are a great deal of people who don't understand music theory and hence don't understand that what they do is well "within" the bounds of "music theory".

Music theory is a system for understanding and describing music. By definition, you can't go outside it.

And also, how would someone come up with their own style that makes them different then everybody else?


You play what you want to play. You are slightly different to everyone else. I don't think it's even possible to imitate someone else perfectly.

A good thing to do is to be aware of when you're playing honest music, or when you're simply playing stock riffs or trying to imitate what you've heard.

If you can't tell the difference then you need to listen to yourself more, cut away what you don't like and then build on the core that's left.
#13
this guy is clearly psyche'd about prolly his favorite band, and every post here starts with "well....they aren't any of those things!", lol
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#14
Can we at least agree that anything sold at an international "alternative culture" chain isn't "underground"?
Good, I thought so. Now back to the topic at hand: Influences in music.
Last edited by Cavalcade at Oct 19, 2011,
#15
Quote by Cavalcade
Can we at least agree that anything sold at an international "alternative culture" chain isn't "underground"?
Good, I thought so. Now back to the topic at hand: Influences in music.

thank you, and this isnt my favorite band. My favorite band is well, every band that can influence me and sice when did ultimate guitar's community get so aggresive? I cant make a post without someone going off topic and correcting something i said even when its my opinion, you cant correct an opinion since it is a statment based off of ones own ideas... people need to grow up
Last edited by NewYngwie at Oct 19, 2011,
#17
im glad you have enough time to check my spelling and point out errors, without people like you the world would be mispelled mayhem
#20
Quote by NewYngwie
i consider them outside mainstream, as my definition of mainstream is slipknot, gaga, bieber and a7x


CoF have been mentioned on many mainstream TV shows and were signed to Sony for a while. You are wrong, CoF are mainstream.

Your questions have been answered, you can continue to argue this with me and be wrong or you can accept that you don't know enough about the underground to accurately judge and be quiet. Your call.

Also: you haven't been around long enough to know how the community works, it's always been like this as far as I can remember.
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#21
Quote by Cavalcade
1) Spam triplets
2) ???
3) Profit!



Um, I can only disagree with the "Spam triplets" assertion because thats the only thing on your list that makes any logical sense. I don't see why everyone assumes Iced Earth does mostly triplets, Schaffer actually uses a lot of intricate quadruplet patterns.

As said before galloping=/=triplets and Jon Schaffer has written 85% of all of Iced Earth's music by himself. I'm not dick sucking or anything, but when you have your own band that actually belongs to YOU and you've been making successful albums for 20+ years that literally don't sound much like anything else - you better be making a PROFIT.
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#22
Quote by Cavalcade
Good, I thought so. Now back to the topic at hand: Influences in music.

The topic was playing styles.
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#23
My intent wasn't to make you get upset over what I think of Iced Earth. I listen to them too. It's good that Jon can somehow lay claim to a fairly common picking style... I guess? Maybe? But I still don't see how IE "doesn't sound much like anything else".
#24
Quote by Cavalcade
My intent wasn't to make you get upset over what I think of Iced Earth. I listen to them too. It's good that Jon can somehow lay claim to a fairly common picking style... I guess? Maybe? But I still don't see how IE "doesn't sound much like anything else".



Can you name me any other bands that implement Gregorian Chanting, Latin scales, Thrash, and opera with metal and while doing so create songs focusing on concepts such as American history, literature, and science fiction? All the while developing their own signature guitar technique that has been adapted from thrash metal bands of the past?
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#25
Quote by Vypor
Can you name me any other bands that implement Gregorian Chanting, Latin scales, Thrash, and opera with metal and while doing so create songs focusing on concepts such as American history, literature, and science fiction? All the while developing their own signature guitar technique that has been adapted from thrash metal bands of the past?

Certainly not on every song, but other bands have used Gregorian chanting, latin scales, and opera elements in the past, as flavoring. I might listen to IE more if they used all of those on every song.
That being said, none of this "goes outside mainstream music and music theories". My point is that almost all music is a product of what came before it, and exceptions are very rare.
#26
Yes pretty much all music is a product of what came before it. I was having a discussion wth my friend, he said iron maiden were completely original but i said that iron maiden were basically thin lizzy combined with black sabbath but with the speed and agression of punk.

It is almost impossible to be totally original
#27
Quote by Cavalcade
Certainly not on every song, but other bands have used Gregorian chanting, latin scales, and opera elements in the past, as flavoring. I might listen to IE more if they used all of those on every song.
That being said, none of this "goes outside mainstream music and music theories". My point is that almost all music is a product of what came before it, and exceptions are very rare.



I do agree with you in this sense, it is incredibly hard to produce something that hasn't been produced yet - and it is even harder to get people to like it.

Most musicians stand on the shoulders of other musicians, if they didn't well then they wouldn't have any influences - and I think its safe to say if we didn't have any influences then we wouldn't be able to hear anything that we were musically "familiar" with.

That being said, the reason I brought up Iced Earth is because I think they implement the key to making original music that doesn't sound like other music. I know thats a little vague, but I'll break it down and give a couple more examples.

To make something that sounds really good and original, I think you have to carefully select from a broad range of already existing genres and carefully mix them together to create new ones. Think of it a little like chemistry. Tool is an example - many agree that there are not many other bands that sound like Tool, they have a very large variety of different genres of music that are implemented into most of their songs. The Living End is a punk band from Australia - they implement punk music with lots of reggae and Latin phrasing - they have a small taste of Sublime but they don't quite count as similar.

I think that individual improvisation also plays at least a partial role in creation and development of "revolutionary" styles of music.
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#28
Can you name me any other bands that implement Gregorian Chanting, Latin scales, Thrash, and opera with metal and while doing so create songs focusing on concepts such as American history, literature, and science fiction? All the while developing their own signature guitar technique that has been adapted from thrash metal bands of the past?


Sure, it's nice that they're not just a metal band but honestly, lots of bands combine wide ranging influences without sounding original. Including Iced Earth imho.

And can you link me any examples that would display their "signature guitar technique"?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing them at all, I just think that you may be exaggerating the amount of musical exploration by the band...
#29
Quote by Vypor

I do agree with you in this sense, it is incredibly hard to produce something that hasn't been produced yet - and it is even harder to get people to like it.

Most musicians stand on the shoulders of other musicians, if they didn't well then they wouldn't have any influences - and I think its safe to say if we didn't have any influences then we wouldn't be able to hear anything that we were musically "familiar" with.

That being said, the reason I brought up Iced Earth is because I think they implement the key to making original music that doesn't sound like other music. I know thats a little vague, but I'll break it down and give a couple more examples.

To make something that sounds really good and original, I think you have to carefully select from a broad range of already existing genres and carefully mix them together to create new ones. Think of it a little like chemistry. Tool is an example - many agree that there are not many other bands that sound like Tool, they have a very large variety of different genres of music that are implemented into most of their songs. The Living End is a punk band from Australia - they implement punk music with lots of reggae and Latin phrasing - they have a small taste of Sublime but they don't quite count as similar.

I think that individual improvisation also plays at least a partial role in creation and development of "revolutionary" styles of music.

The problem is that since this is a thread about guitar style, I was focusing on their guitarwork (and really, there's no denying that the guitarwork is a bit repetitive). IE's mix of operatic power metal vocals and thrash riffs is decently unique (although they're far from the only band to have tried that), but as for everything else, bands will throw in bits and pieces of other genres all the time for "flavor".
Lots of bands, for example, have one or two songs with a Middle Eastern sound (a few examples: "The Scorpion" by Megadeth, "Sahara" by Nightwish, "Black Rain" by Primal Fear). It's been a metal tradition since "Curse Of The Pharaoh". It can get a bit crazy with folk metal, too (see the banjo solo in "Stone Cold Metal" by Ensiferum, or the klezmer intro of "Eliytres" by Finntroll). But obviously not every Megadeth song sounds like "The Scorpion".
This is what Iced Earth does, too. "Damien" has faux-Latin chanting. "Wolf" has an off-kilter Latin beat for a while. "Angels' Holocaust" kicks off with a sample from "Carmina Burana" (I think; could be wrong on that one). But the majority of their catalog is just a fairly straightforward mix of thrash and power metal, and so are those songs; just with bits of other genres added in.
Of course, if that's what you mean, they do deserve some credit for mixing thrash and power, like I said at the start.
(Damn. I just wrote an essay. TL;DR: Iced Earth uses bits of other genres in some of their songs, but so do other bands, so this isn't anything new.)
Quote by Freepower

And can you link me any examples that would display their "signature guitar technique"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88jlseWPs_o
#30
Don't get me wrong, those are all killer riffs, but not one of those riffs were anything more than great thrash riffs.

I mean, how can you honestly tell me those are original when they're basically all "Pedal Low E with 16th notes or 16th note triplets - interject powerchords, scale runs and pinch harmonics?" - which has been Metal Riff 101 since the dawn of time?

I've even heard the exact same riff from Dino Cazares once.

Although I'm definitely going to listen to more IE after that riff fest, they're even less original than I remembered.
#32
Quote by Kowaru


Nothing even vaguely original about that...
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#33
Quote by Vypor
Can you name me any other bands that implement Gregorian Chanting, Latin scales, Thrash, and opera with metal and while doing so create songs focusing on concepts such as American history, literature, and science fiction? All the while developing their own signature guitar technique that has been adapted from thrash metal bands of the past?
I'm guessing you've constrained the answer to one individual band. But then, wouldn't that band be copying the band you're proselytizing?

As I recall, Steeleye Span coughed up a pretty good Gregorian Chant, "Gaudete".

As to clever very referential, literary, and mythology based lyrics, I pick, "The Strawbs", with David Cousins as the songwriter.

Here's a guy who turns the basic story behind Homer's "The Iliad and the Odyssey", into a song called, "Hero and Heroine", which turns out to be about drug addiction.

Another song of his, "Beside the Rio Grande", superimposes the life of Christ, upon the backdrop of a country preacher going into a western town, doing good, and being hanged for it.

But all this went down 40 years ago in a folkish/ hard rock environment, so forgive me for waxing nostalgic.

Loreena McKennitt does a great job of finding, adapting, and rendering musical, stories, poems, mystical legends, and forgotten songs from a wide variety of cultural influences. But here again, I seriously doubt if you'd even tolerate her on your play list.

Oh BTW, "Queen" toyed with opera.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 22, 2011,