#1
Hey guys,

I'v just been doing a bit of modes study (actually I'v been doing it ages, but I just stepped up a few levels in understanding).

Can some one recommend me a solo that uses some modes so that I can analyse it?

It doesn't have to be purely modes. In fact I would prefer it if it wasn't, that way I have more to spot.


Also, it would be cool if it was in an old school metal or rock style, as that's what I like most. But it doesn't matter if it is not.

Some one like Randy Rhoads or that era would be cool.


Also, please don't recommend me one that is super crazy or super difficult to analyse just for the sake of it. Keep it fairly simple, and short.

Thanks in advanced.
#7
Quote by liampje
I can't give you that.
What I can give you is a solo that uses the mixolydian SCALE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35JYMFfEKf4
This is most certainly NOT a mode it's still TONAL.
I highlighted the words because some people are just blind.
EDIT:I don't mean you since I never seen you before.


Dont worry about offending me =P Your trying to help me so its all good.
#9
Quote by liampje
I can't give you that.
What I can give you is a solo that uses the mixolydian SCALE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35JYMFfEKf4
This is most certainly NOT a mode it's still TONAL.
I highlighted the words because some people are just blind.
EDIT:I don't mean you since I never seen you before.

eh i think you're still a little off

@jkielq91, solos don't use modes, a chord progression can be made to conform to a mode and then you can solo over it using the notes in that mode, but you can't take a chord progression in modern music like I-IV-V and play modes over it, just not how it works. you can sort of think in terms of modes in ways like "if i use the#4 over this chord, its the lydian mode" but that's not true modal music. in true modal music, the entire song conforms to 1 scale, in modern music (modal music is an outdated system from centuries ago), you use "tonality,"you compare each note and chord in the piece of music to the "tonal center," the note that the key is named after and sounds most resolved, but of course the tonal center/key can change within the song, so you compare what notes/chords you're playing to the tonal center of the moment.

i know that sounds pretty confusing. if you're willing to spend a lot of time working on this, you can look up my free lessons on "myguitarworkshop.com" titled "rhythm, harmony, and melody all properly explored."
#10
I think you're better off analysing some simple solos TS, whilst learning about harmonising and keys. Once you have the foundation for learning about modes, you can learn about modes. Once you know about modes you'll know why it's pretty hard to answer your initial question.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#11
I concur with TMVATDI's comment with the exception of taking the claim "modal music is an outdated system from centuries ago" literally. There still is plenty of music that is explicitly modal, based on vamps and drones or just melody lines, with no real "chord progression" or functional harmonic movement. A decent sampling of rock, pop, and jazz has included it the whole time. The fact that such music is not occuring in the same context in which modes originally arose (essentially, anchient and medieval folk music) is irrelevant to the fact that it is modal.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Oct 20, 2011,
#12
Quote by Brainpolice2
I concur with TMVATDI's comment with the exception of taking the claim "modal music is an outdated system from centuries ago" literally. There still is plenty of music that is explicitly modal, based on vamps and drones or just melody lines, with no real "chord progression" or functional harmonic movement. A decent sampling of rock, pop, and jazz has included it the whole time.

its pretty damn rare to find a modern, truely modal song. i think there's a radiohead one. and a few guys on this site have written some, i couldn't name them from memory though. i've also written 1 song for each mode as a little experiment. that's about all the modern modal stuff i've ever heard.
#13
Quote by TMVATDI
its pretty damn rare to find a modern, truely modal song. i think there's a radiohead one. and a few guys on this site have written some, i couldn't name them from memory though. i've also written 1 song for each mode as a little experiment. that's about all the modern modal stuff i've ever heard.


I don't think it's hard to find at all. Pop in a Santana CD or listen to some of Coltrane's work in the 60's. Pretty much anything built off of intervals from what we'd call one of the modes in which you can hear the root note consistently ringing through, with no harmononic movement, is functionally modal. In fact, modal vamps are common musical cliches (say, for E phyrigian: Em, F over and over; or for E dorian: Em7 and A7 over and over).

I don't know about you, but I've done droning modal jams with people all the time - it's as simple as picking a mode and just playing melodically with them, with the root note very clearly established and staying static.

I don't want to derail this, but the music theory orthodoxy on this board unfairly defines modern modal music out of existence.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Oct 20, 2011,
#14
Quote by Brainpolice2
I don't think it's hard to find at all. Pop in a Santana CD or listen to some of Coltrane's work in the 60's. Pretty much anything built off of intervals from what we'd call one of the modes in which you can hear the root note consistently ringing through, with no harmononic movement, is functionally modal. In fact, modal vamps are common musical cliches (say, for E phyrigian: Em, F over and over; or for E dorian: Em7 and A7 over and over).

I don't know about you, but I've done droning modal jams with people all the time - it's as simple as picking a mode and just playing melodically with them, with the tonic very clearly established.

I don't want to derail this, but the music theory orthodoxy on this board unfairly defines modern modal music out of existence.

"modal jazz" isn't really modal, it experiments with the modes but breaks a lot of rules of "true" modal music. i'd never expect a jazz musician to let something tie them down to what they can or can't do in a song, jazz is the exact opposite of that. there may be a couple jazz songs that are truly modal, but i guarantee if you listen to a "modal jazz" album all the way through, most of it won't be.

its true that you can probably find a few metal songs around in phrygian. i've HEARD that the simpson's theme song is in lydian, but i never really looked into it to make sure. i don't think dorian is anywhere near a cliche, maybe you can find it in a bit of a bluesy-sounding song or 2.

i agree with the last statement, nobody should be saying there's "no such thing as modal music anymore," and i chose my words poorly in my first comment, but i think its safe to say modal music is very rare in modern times, not completely non-existent, but compare it to the literally millions of songs written (either well-known or played by some unrecognizable kid) that aren't modal, and its very rare.
#15
Quote by TMVATDI
... but i think its safe to say modal music is very rare in modern times, not completely non-existent, but compare it to the literally millions of songs written (either well-known or played by some unrecognizable kid) that aren't modal, and its very rare.


If that's true then it makes modal music a good thing, worth trying out.
#16
The Miles Davis solo on So What seems to be the first solo a lot of jazz players transcribe. The harmony of the piece is rather static, just D Dorian to Eb dorian, so it would be good for a beginning improviser. Also, he uses the blues scale and some upper structure ideas to great effect, so that will introduce you to some kind of more advanced concepts.

So, yeah, I'd recommend learning that.
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#17
Quote by AlanHB
I think you're better off analysing some simple solos TS, whilst learning about harmonising and keys. Once you have the foundation for learning about modes, you can learn about modes. Once you know about modes you'll know why it's pretty hard to answer your initial question.


I'v analysed other solos and things like chord progressions in the past.

I know that modes are often good over drones, as well as soloing over a chord thats not in the key.

Tbh I'm not the biggest fan of modes and as far as I'm aware a lot of my favourite players never use them. But I am curious about them.
#18
I tend to gravitate towards Satch for this sort of thing. His music is a lot more easy listening than Vai's.
#19
Quote by jkielq91
I'v analysed other solos and things like chord progressions in the past.

I know that modes are often good over drones, as well as soloing over a chord thats not in the key.

Tbh I'm not the biggest fan of modes and as far as I'm aware a lot of my favourite players never use them. But I am curious about them.


The problem is that you'd be hard pressed to find a song that starts in a mode, then shifts to a key and back again or vica-versa.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#20
Quote by AlanHB
The problem is that you'd be hard pressed to find a song that starts in a mode, then shifts to a key and back again or vica-versa.



tbh I'd be happy analysing a solo that was all in minor pentatonic but suddenly bursts into a mode for 3 seconds, before returning to pentatonic, and seeing why they did that.

Thats kind of more what I want. Maybe I should have been clearer.
#22
Quote by jkielq91
tbh I'd be happy analysing a solo that was all in minor pentatonic but suddenly bursts into a mode for 3 seconds, before returning to pentatonic, and seeing why they did that.

Thats kind of more what I want. Maybe I should have been clearer.


Well that would be near impossible - I think we're on different pages as to what "modes" exactly are.

You are probably talking about using accidentals. I'm with mdc about listening to the big blues guys, listen to SRV or Gary Moore.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#23
My canned list for what you are looking for...

Check out these tunes for practical modal application (this is my common list):

So What by Miles Davis - Dorian
Impressions - Dorian
Maiden Voyage by Herbie Handcock - Dorian
Song for John by Stanley Clarke and Chick Corea - Lydian with tensions
Km-Pee-Du-Wee by Steve Vai - Lydian
Norwegian Wood the Beatles - Mixolydian and Dorian
In Memory of Elizabeth Reed by The Allman Brothers - Dorian
Windows by Chick Corea - Lydian
Moondance - Dorian and Aeolian
More Ravi Shankar and Shakti than you can shake a stick at!
#24
"modal jazz" isn't really modal, it experiments with the modes but breaks a lot of rules of "true" modal music. i'd never expect a jazz musician to let something tie them down to what they can or can't do in a song, jazz is the exact opposite of that. there may be a couple jazz songs that are truly modal, but i guarantee if you listen to a "modal jazz" album all the way through, most of it won't be.


There's our disagreement - there are no "rules of true modal music" IMO, and if anything I would think that it's *tonality* that has restrictive conventions. If you pick the right set of intervals to work with over a clearly established drone or vamp, or otherwise melodically without any genuine "movement", you're playing modally, irrespective of any explicit relation or lack thereof to anchient or medieval folk music.

But it's a lot more than just modal jazz I'm appealing to. You can find plenty of modal music in some folk, jam bands, portions of latin music, and reoccuring as cliches in pop music. It doesn't have to be a gregorian chant.

its true that you can probably find a few metal songs around in phrygian.


Yes - and some latin and middle eastern music (or music influenced by such). How many times have we heard something like E and F and over and over with phrygian lines being played, and it's clearly not a big V-VI-V? Lots!

[i don't think dorian is anywhere near a cliche, maybe you can find it in a bit of a bluesy-sounding song or 2.


In my world, the dorian vamp is a very common cliche. How many times have we heard Am7 and D7 over and over, with people noodling with (A) dorian? You can find it in funk, rock, latin oriented stuff all the time.
#25
Quote by MikeDodge
My canned list for what you are looking for...

Check out these tunes for practical modal application (this is my common list):

So What by Miles Davis - Dorian
Impressions - Dorian
Maiden Voyage by Herbie Handcock - Dorian
Song for John by Stanley Clarke and Chick Corea - Lydian with tensions
Km-Pee-Du-Wee by Steve Vai - Lydian
Norwegian Wood the Beatles - Mixolydian and Dorian
In Memory of Elizabeth Reed by The Allman Brothers - Dorian
Windows by Chick Corea - Lydian
Moondance - Dorian and Aeolian
More Ravi Shankar and Shakti than you can shake a stick at!


This.
#26
Quote by Brainpolice2
There's our disagreement - there are no "rules of true modal music" IMO, and if anything I would think that it's *tonality* that has restrictive conventions. If you pick the right set of intervals to work with over a clearly established drone or vamp, or otherwise melodically without any genuine "movement", you're playing modally, irrespective of any explicit relation or lack thereof to anchient or medieval folk music.

But it's a lot more than just modal jazz I'm appealing to. You can find plenty of modal music in some folk, jam bands, portions of latin music, and reoccuring as cliches in pop music. It doesn't have to be a gregorian chant.


Yes - and some latin and middle eastern music (or music influenced by such). How many times have we heard something like E and F and over and over with phrygian lines being played, and it's clearly not a big V-VI-V? Lots!


In my world, the dorian vamp is a very common cliche. How many times have we heard Am7 and D7 over and over, with people noodling with (A) dorian? You can find it in funk, rock, latin oriented stuff all the time.

anything you can do with modality can also be done with tonality, but there are things you can do with tonality you can't do with modality, that is fact.

If a song is in, for example, A dorian the entire time, in which the harmony is 100% diatonic to the A dorian scale, and the song clearly resolves on the Aminor chord, and there are no key changes or mode changes, that is an entirely modal song. But that song can also work in modern tonal theory. If you mess with that song and make it not modal, it still works tonally. It'd be damn near impossible for you to find music that doesn't work tonally, even some "atonal" composers call their music essentially tonal, just tweaked out.

Phrygian is still a decently popular mode for things like metal. Middle Eastern music is a whole different subject, I haven't studied anything about it and to be honest I just doubt you have either.

Just because a chord progression CAN work in dorian, and the soloist messes around with the dorian mode's note that distinguishes it from the minor scale (major 6th), does not mean you can call it modal, or a dorian song, its just a minor key song with that 6 thrown in every now and then.