#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfyMMnucen8
Skip to 10:20

So basicly, what does piano voicing and closed voicing mean?

Also, if i have a minor 7 chord, and start on the (flat)seventh, is it 3 inversion or 4th inversion?
Last edited by Usernames sucks at Oct 22, 2011,
#3
^That.
1st inversion = 3rd in the bass
2nd inversion = 5th in the bass
3rd inversion = 7th in the bass

As for the voicing thing, I'm not really sure, but it might have to do with having the notes in the chord spread over a wide pitch range, with lots of "space" between them, or having them closer together.

Like the difference between:

|---|         |---|
|---|         |---|
|-5-|   and   |-0-|
|-5-|         |-2-|
|-7-|         |-3-|
|-5-|         |-5-|
Last edited by sickman411 at Oct 22, 2011,
#4
yeah, or maybe closed voicing always has the root as the highest note, and piano voicing has a different note as the highest?
#5
Piano voicing is when, on a piano, the left hand plays one bass note and the right hand plays the rest of the chord. This is also know as keyboard style.

A Closed voicing is when the notes, if placed on a staff, are as close together as possible and there are no notes skipped over. (A C note and then an E and a G an octave above would be skipping the lower E and G, and the higher C, and thus be in open position.)

Edit: On guitar, piano and closed voicing both refer, I believe, to playing the chords in closed voicing, with all the notes in the same octave and as close together (if they were on a staff) as possible.
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 22, 2011,
#7
Quote by Usernames sucks
Can i have a inversion that dosnt contain the root?
For example can i have a second inversion of a em7, that dont contain a e note?


Mhmm. But, if you do a second inversion of that without an E, it's the same as a first inversion of a G chord. So depending on the context, it might not function the way you want it. That's the neat thing when you get into really playing around with chords, stuff gets ambiguous and vague and leaves you with a lot of different options to be creative.
#9
Quote by Usernames sucks
Can i have a inversion that dosnt contain the root?
For example can i have a second inversion of a em7, that dont contain a e note?


No, you "need" to have a root and third in every chord. If its a seventh chord, you need the seventh too.

The reason being that an Em7 without that E sounds and functions as a Gmaj. If for instance, you played a chord of G B and D, and someone else was playing an E at the same time, youd have an Em7.
Last edited by chantastic at Oct 23, 2011,
#10
Quote by chantastic
No, you "need" to have a root and third in every chord. If its a seventh chord, you need the seventh too.

The reason being that an Em7 without that E sounds and functions as a Gmaj. If for instance, you played a chord of G B and D, and someone else was playing an E at the same time, youd have an Em7.

you're looking at it as just one chord without nothing else. If you have a musical piece or progression or whatever than just one note can't change it from Gmaj to Em7
#11
To jump in and help clarify maybe, in a musical context in which a bass player already hits the root note, it is possible to get away with using chord voicings that don't contain it (and this also opens things up to hit other, color notes instead).

So yea, you can play chords without the root but this generally is done when another part already has the root covered so that, when your parts are put together, the full chord is still being formed.
#12
Quote by Vendetta V
you're looking at it as just one chord without nothing else. If you have a musical piece or progression or whatever than just one note can't change it from Gmaj to Em7


If theres no root, its no longer that chord. Your really going to have to make a strong case if you want to convince anyone otherwise
#13
Quote by chantastic
If theres no root, its no longer that chord. Your really going to have to make a strong case if you want to convince anyone otherwise


Oh yeah?


Quote by Brainpolice2
To jump in and help clarify maybe, in a musical context in which a bass player already hits the root note, it is possible to get away with using chord voicings that don't contain it (and this also opens things up to hit other, color notes instead).

So yea, you can play chords without the root but this generally is done when another part already has the root covered so that, when your parts are put together, the full chord is still being formed.
#14
Quote by chantastic
If theres no root, its no longer that chord. Your really going to have to make a strong case if you want to convince anyone otherwise

well let's see:
if you're playing Am G F E and don't play G's Root and you play an E on the G chord does is acidentally change the whole progression to Am Em7 F E? no
that's simple as it is, if you think of it this way, three notes can be any chord right? other than going with the usual route of naming a chord, in musical pieces you analyze the hwole thing together and then see what chord those notes form... no need for root to have a chord. Even though the general rule is 1 3 5 you dont need all of them to make a chord. For instance in the progresion below it'll still be Am G F E even if you don't play the 3rds and go with powerchords.

idk if that makes sense to you or in general really, I just woke up and am already hasting to go out
#15
Quote by Usernames sucks
Can i have a inversion that dosnt contain the root?
For example can i have a second inversion of a em7, that dont contain a e note?

You can, but rather than losing it completely, I'd replace it with a colour tone, namely the 9th as it's a pretty safe extension.

There are certain formulas to work these things out, like a rootless maj9 chord is just m7 a major 3rd higher. Or a rootless dominant 9 chord is a m7b5 a major 3rd higher.

Cmaj9 (rootless) = Em7.
G9 (rootless) = Bm7b5

...and your chord in question, rootless Em9 is Gmaj7. So the formula would be a maj7 chord a minor 3rd higher.

It may be worth looking in to chord families and common tone substitution.
Last edited by mdc at Oct 24, 2011,
#16
Quote by aCloudConnected
Oh yeah?


Already covered that in my first post. Thanks though, friend

Vendetta, the chord actually would change to Em. You can definitely omit thirds. You could even make a good case for omitting thirds and keeping the chord in a power chord function. Theres no scenario where changing the root doesnt change the chord
Last edited by chantastic at Oct 24, 2011,
#17
I always thought you could omit the root on chords that weren't a triad. In others words.. G major you must play the root. G dominant 7 you could omit it. This partly because, if you omit the root of a triad, you don't actually have a chord.
#18
Quote by Captaincranky
I always thought you could omit the root on chords that weren't a triad. In others words.. G major you must play the root. G dominant 7 you could omit it. This partly because, if you omit the root of a triad, you don't actually have a chord.


If you omit the G in a G7, you have Bdim dawg

Bow wow muther****er
#19
Quote by chantastic
If you omit the G in a G7, you have Bdim dawg

Bow wow muther****er


And if you have a bass player still playing a low G note, you functionally have G7 still, even if as a guitar player you are playing what looks like a Bdim.

What's the problem? This is done in jazz comping all the time.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Oct 24, 2011,
#20
Quote by Brainpolice2
And if you have a bass player still playing a low G note, you functionally have G7 still, even if as a guitar player you are playing what looks like a Bdim.


Its assumed that you say G7, you mean all the voices in the room are coming together to make a G7. If no one is playing the G in a G7, you have Bdim. Thats what weve been talking about
#21
Quote by chantastic
Its assumed that you say G7, you mean all the voices in the room are coming together to make a G7. If no one is playing the G in a G7, you have Bdim. Thats what weve been talking about


Actually I think the talk of ommiting root notes has always been in a context in which another part has it covered. I'm not aware of anyone who claims that a chord is still the same chord with the root ommited, devoid of musical context. If I'm wrong about that, it certainly isn't made clear with the confusion in this thread.
#22
Quote by Brainpolice2
Actually I think the talk of ommiting root notes has always been in a context in which another part has it covered. I'm not aware of anyone who claims that a chord is still the same chord with the root ommited, devoid of musical context.


Wat. It wasnt until someone decided it was before me.
#23
Essentially with any inversion, you're taking the bass note and stacking it an octave above.

CMaj7would go as follows.

Root C-E-G-B
1st Inv E-G-B-C
2nd Inv G-B-C-E
3rd Inv B-C-E-G

No 4th inversion, as you run out of linear note combinations.

Same applies for any chord, although only chords with 4 unique notes will have a 3rd inversion.

Edit: About ommiting root notes in chords, if you had CMaj7 and you removed the root, you would only have E-G-B which is Emin. Likewise if you remove the E from Emin7 you would get GMaj. Unless you're adding in another extension as mdc said, there isn't much point in calling it a 7th chord anymore, unless its particularly important to the key.

And CMaj7(No root) is kind of useless to write.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Oct 24, 2011,