#1
Yeah, me again. I posted about lower range les pauls on the guitar market a few days ago and i just checked to see 11 replys on guitars under £330. I investigated somewhat into thes MIJ Lawsuit guitars people have been going on about and they all seem like a good quality guitar with a different make on the top. Is there some kinda catch to this? why are they all so cheap?! they all look awesome and i think ill invest in one at the weekend id like to know also, if there are any problems that they come with, like cheap wood, or are there alot of people claiming that its a lawsuit guitar and scamming people?
if youre interested, im probably going for one of these, so if you have an idea of the right one, TELL ME

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-LOTUS-SILVERBURST-LP-STYLE-GUITAR-W-COIL-TAP-JAPANESE-MADE-PRE-LAWSUIT-/280761128513?pt=Guitar&hash=item415eaad641

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTORIA-IBANEZ-Les-Paul-CUSTOM-GUITAR-MIJ-1970s-40-years-Old-/260877970042?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3cbd89ea7a


THANKS!
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#2
Because they're not the real thing I suppose would be one good answer. Theres nothing collectible about them. Because of this price won't go up and I'm not even sure if demand for them is that high, despite their quality(in some of them at least).
Quote by barden1069
A "tubescreamer" is a person paid by a guitarist to stand behind the amp and scream at the tubes. This terrifies the tubes into overdriving and delivers a thick, harmonic-rich tone.
#3
I have one, wood is great! I think good wood was cheaper back in the day, mine was made in the 70s. I absolutely love mine. got some hand wound pickups in there, and I have never played a better les paul. only thing is an old guitar might require a bit of a fret dress.
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#4
I'm not sure if there actually was a lawsuit, more just the threat of one.

That being said, MIJ guitars are great (in my opinion and experience, anyway). You're getting way better wood than you'd be getting on £300 Korean or Chinese-made beginner guitars. You're maybe not getting 1959 Gibson-grade Honduran Mahogany, but it's pretty good.

Only real concern is, as you've suggested, people ripping you off by lying about what they have. It's also worth pointing out that there are higher- and lower-end MIJ models. Even the cheaper MIJs are normally pretty good, but you don't want to be paying higher-end prices for them, and it's often hard to tell whether it's a higher- or lower-end model unless you really know what to look for. And the people selling them are always 100% convinced that they have the most expensive model, conveniently enough

Also if you're actually looking at the "lawsuit" ones (i.e. late 70s), you're talking about 30 year-old guitars, so they might not be in the best condition, might need a refret, etc. etc. Just the usual things to watch out for with any second-hand guitar.

I have no idea about either of those ones you listed, I only really know (a very little) about tokai and the like.

It's probably also worth pointing out that you can pick up new Japanese tokais for around £550 or so.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#5
Basically, there are two kinds of lawsuit guitars - good ones, and bad ones. The bad ones have bolt on necks. Good ones have set necks. The first link is obviously a bolt on. I think the second one is as well, but it's kind of hard to see for sure.

There were a LOT of MIJ lawsuit-esque guitars in the 70's-80's, but that doesn't mean they were good guitars. Most of them weren't. If you're looking to get a lawsuit guitar, check for the neck joint.

Examples of good lawsuit guitars for example would be Edwards, and I believe Tokai also made some good ones. Excellent quality.

EDIT: Ibanez did make some good lawsuits though. Like this for example (just a quick search) http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1977-IBANEZ-2454-es-335-MIJ-Japan-LAWSUIT-VINTAGE-Impossible-find-RARE-/390328609914?pt=Guitar&hash=item5ae165ec7a I'm sure they also made Les Paul shapes that weren't bolt on, but I didn't see any on ebay.
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Last edited by Offworld92 at Oct 26, 2011,
#6
not every japanaese copy guitar from the 70s is a gem at all. i'd do some homework on these befor buying. both are bolt ons which are less desirable. while many 70s japanese guitars are as good or better than many of the new lower end axes once again not all are. research and don't just buy into the hype blindly
#7
Quote by Offworld92
Basically, there are two kinds of lawsuit guitars - good ones, and bad ones. The bad ones have bolt on necks. Good ones have set necks. The first link is obviously a bolt on. I think the second one is as well, but it's kind of hard to see for sure.

There were a LOT of MIJ lawsuit-esque guitars in the 70's-80's, but that doesn't mean they were good guitars. Most of them weren't. If you're looking to get a lawsuit guitar, check for the neck joint.

Examples of good lawsuit guitars for example would be Edwards, and I believe Tokai also made some good ones. Excellent quality.

EDIT: Ibanez did make some good lawsuits though. Like this for example (just a quick search) http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1977-IBANEZ-2454-es-335-MIJ-Japan-LAWSUIT-VINTAGE-Impossible-find-RARE-/390328609914?pt=Guitar&hash=item5ae165ec7a I'm sure they also made Les Paul shapes that weren't bolt on, but I didn't see any on ebay.

Lawsuit Ibanez copies are supposed to be pretty shoddy. They are basically the epiphones of the 70s.
#8
+1 on the fact that they're probably not all good. Definitely do research.

I thought edwards guitars were a lot more recent than the lawsuit, but i could be wrong.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#9
You're probably right. I think Edwards (or maybe it was ESP) was involved in a lawsuit with Gibson, but that could be a way more recent thing. I know ESP at least had to ditch the original Eclipse shape, for the modern 3 knob version. But they're still in Japan. Something about they can still make those shapes in Japan (I know Edwards does for sure).
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#10
so thoes guitars listed arent really as good as, say a new epiphone les paul standard? or are they about equal? because thats my other choice.
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#11
Personally, I would take the Epiphone. But I'm biased, I think bolt on Les Pauls in general are abominations. If that doesn't bother you, then get the MIJ - it will most likely have better wood than whatever Epiphone is using now. But it won't feel like a Les Paul, and to some extent, won't sound like one either.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#12
Quote by Offworld92
Personally, I would take the Epiphone. But I'm biased, I think bolt on Les Pauls in general are abominations. If that doesn't bother you, then get the MIJ - it will most likely have better wood than whatever Epiphone is using now. But it won't feel like a Les Paul, and to some extent, won't sound like one either.


im still not sure, i like the coil tap and switch on the lotus guitar, but i like that i could get a new epiphone les paul for the same price with no aging etc if you had to reccomend any guitar for classic rock, metal, and hard rock under £330 what would it be?
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#13
Quote by Offworld92
Personally, I would take the Epiphone. But I'm biased, I think bolt on Les Pauls in general are abominations. If that doesn't bother you, then get the MIJ - it will most likely have better wood than whatever Epiphone is using now. But it won't feel like a Les Paul, and to some extent, won't sound like one either.


if you really want a LP then go with the Epi. not all or even most japanese copies from the 70s are mahogany or even close. and yeah a blot on LP just isn't right and most likely has a maple neck.
#14
I have a 70s mij Madeira, with a bolt on neck, that absolutely destroys the new Gibson version, set neck or not I was stunned. Old cheap>new midlevel in many cases. IMO I'd wanna check the guitar out first though, def wouldn't buy one blind, online.
#15
Quote by Offworld92
You're probably right. I think Edwards (or maybe it was ESP) was involved in a lawsuit with Gibson, but that could be a way more recent thing. I know ESP at least had to ditch the original Eclipse shape, for the modern 3 knob version. But they're still in Japan. Something about they can still make those shapes in Japan (I know Edwards does for sure).


yeah i think copyright law is a lot more lax in japan or something like that
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#16
A while ago i checked out some prs guitars, i found one for £268 used. soon ill be going to try out some at a big guitar shop then probably come home and buy one. this is the prs...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Paul-Reed-Smith-Santana-SE-Electric-PRS-Guitar-Whale-Blue-Korea-2002-Gigbag-/190588451727?pt=Guitar&hash=item2c5ff4fb8f
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#17
SE's are nice. I've never seen that model before though.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
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(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#18
Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah i think copyright law is a lot more lax in japan or something like that


not the case just different. the design predates current international law. the whole international copyright thing is fairly new. gibson can't enforce it in japan but can prevent them from being freely exported to the US.
#19
sorry for so many questions but im surfing ebay.. are the korean les pauls bad? or...
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#21
Quote by leigh596
sorry for so many questions but im surfing ebay.. are the korean les pauls bad? or...


totally depends on which one. don't worry about it and take your time to make sure you make the most informed choice.
#22
Quote by monwobobbo
not the case just different. the design predates current international law. the whole international copyright thing is fairly new. gibson can't enforce it in japan but can prevent them from being freely exported to the US.


ah ok
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#23
well ill try out about 20 guitars anyway and see what i want,but i think itll be a les paul
My Rig
Fender Blacktop Strat HH MN > Joyo JF-01 Vintage Overdrive > Boss ME50 > Line 6 Spider IV 30

Other Shit
Jim Deacon Acoustic
Yamaha 12 string acoustic

New Amp Fund
£300/700
#24
There are some great MIJ Les Paul copies made in the late 70's and 80's from Greco, Orville, Burny, Tokai and others. They're all set necks and pretty much made to spec to copy Gibsons. They are very collectible (not the MIJ bolt-on neck models). They usually go for about $700 - $800. Some Tokai's go for $2k.

A great place to learn about them is at MyLesPaul forums under "Other Les Pauls"

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/other-les-pauls/

I bought A 1986 Greco from one of the member. It's copy of a Les Paul Custom:



It weighs in at 10lbs and plays like a dream.
#25
Quote by patriotplayer90
Lawsuit Ibanez copies are supposed to be pretty shoddy. They are basically the epiphones of the 70s.


my Ibanez Lawsuit bolt on LP will absolutely destroy just about any other LP you put it against.

Great overall guitar.
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