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#1
www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/11/05/bc-occupy-vancouver-death.html

Death confirmed at the Occupy movement at the Vancouver Art Gallery. No one is really talking much, but all signs seem to be pointing to heroin overdose, and this coming one day after another camper OD'd on the substance yesterday. This can only further add to the turmoil surrounding the movement. I don't see how this will possibly positively contribute to the public impression of the people participating - whether she was merely a homeless person who decided to make a temporary home in the tent city or not, attributing careless, avoidable deaths to the movement can only serve to sour the reputation.

Is it time for the protesters to consider packing up yet?
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#2
dirtbag ballet by the bins down the alley
as i walk through the chalet of the shadow of death
everything that you've come to expect


#4
Typical Vancouver.

When will those guys learn to stop trying to police the whole world.
#6
im tired of the word "movement"
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#7
Quote by guns for hire

Is it time for the protesters to consider packing up yet?

No I don't see why. But this will definitely be seized upon as a rationale for forcibly breaking up the protest by people who are against its aims anyway. Sad this woman's death will be used so cynically.
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#8
Quote by So-Cal
probably some bohemian college kid


my first thought too. Given the nature of the crowd around there, it was as likely to be someone who uses recreationally trying to find any excuse to party to excess, as it was a legitimately homeless/addicted citizen.
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#9
I'm still confused.

Is there a set list of official goals and demands yet? And if so, what?

Because if it's still the state of vague anger that I'm under the impression these protests are, they're about as useful as campaigning on the platform of "down with problems, fight the man!"
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#11
It only takes a handful of jackasses to ruin something for everyone.

And their message began to be ruined when they started making those asinine hand signals... They've already trivialized their own ideals by doing what they've been, they may as well pack it the hell up, because change doesn't come from waggling your fingers while a flame juggler plays hackey sack with a guy who wants legal pot.
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#12
I'm pretty sure they just like V for Vendetta alot

“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#13
Quote by necrosis1193
I'm still confused.

Is there a set list of official goals and demands yet? And if so, what?

Because if it's still the state of vague anger that I'm under the impression these protests are, they're about as useful as campaigning on the platform of "down with problems, fight the man!"

I don't understand the fixation with finding an 'official' list of demands. It's not as if every tea party group in the country ever got together and agreed on a super specific manifesto. And the Occupy protests are even more diffuse than that, not just all over the country but all over the world.

Their overarching theme is getting rid of Wall Street/big business's stranglehold on government.
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#14
Quote by ErikLensherr
I don't understand the fixation with finding an 'official' list of demands. It's not as if every tea party group in the country ever got together and agreed on a super specific manifesto.


And look just how effective they've been. Four years, and the culmination of their impact is probably Ron Paul and Michelle Bachmann being nominees who probably aren't going anywhere in the primary, Paulie for a second time.

And the Occupy protests are even more diffuse than that, not just all over the country but all over the world.

Their overarching theme is getting rid of Wall Street/big business's stranglehold on government.


That's nice. But there's literally no point in something that vague. I don't want to sound like a whiny old curmudgeon convinced nothing can be changed, but the fact of the matter is that the absurd number of intricacies in domestic politics, international politics, business both big and small, and how all of them tie together, is so gigantic and complex, that just saying "less business in government" is about as useful as this.
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Last edited by necrosis1193 at Nov 6, 2011,
#15
^especially considering they're not offering up any solutions on how to achieve their ideals for governmental change.

I agree with what they want, but standing around in large groups demanding something usually ends badly when you're not bringing anything to the table.
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#16
Quote by strat0blaster
^especially considering they're not offering up any solutions on how to achieve their ideals for governmental change.

I agree with what they want, but standing around in large groups demanding something usually ends badly when you're not bringing anything to the table.


Agreed on both fronts. I personally wish they'd end already - I agree with what they're saying, but the way they're saying it is useless, and by making a nuisance of themselves, they're killing a huge amount of public support the cause had.

It probably doesn't help matters either that it seems a lot of these "Occupy not-wallstreet" protests are just bandwagoning or looking for the power of a mob(for example, one local Occupy X group decided to ransack a student loan office. Because why not cause thousands in property damage, destroy records that will potentially put thousands of students in the red, and give the police an excuse to close you down?)
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Last edited by necrosis1193 at Nov 6, 2011,
#17
Quote by necrosis1193
And look just how effective they've been.

90 self-described tea partiers in Congress. And a GOP pushed further right than probably any point in the party's history. They won't even countenance raising taxes on the wealthy by a few percentage points to 90s levels for fear of invoking a primary challenge. I'd say that's pretty damn effective.

Quote by necrosis1193
That's nice. But there's literally no point in something that vague. I don't want to sound like a whiny old curmudgeon convinced nothing can be changed, but the fact of the matter is that the absurd number of intricacies in domestic politics, international politics, business both big and small, and how all of them tie together, is so gigantic and complex, that just saying "less business in government" is about as useful as this.

I'm satisfied with Occupy protests as a start considering the alternative of sitting on our asses and doing nothing. What would you suggest?

Quote by necrosis1193
Agreed on both fronts. I personally wish they'd end already - I agree with what they're saying, but the way they're saying it is useless, and by making a nuisance of themselves, they're killing a huge amount of public support the cause had.
That's just wrong, though. Read this posting by Robert Reich:
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/31/how_ows_has_transformed_public_opinion/
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#18
The problem isn't their means of protesting, it's that they haven't yet achieved the next step in inciting change. They need to get out of the simple protest stage in order to make the OWS Movement legitimate. The Occupy Protests are pretty legitimate and voice legitimate concerns. But the Movement itself is not.

Needs more organization.
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#19
Quote by ErikLensherr

That's just wrong, though. Read this posting by Robert Reich:
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/31/how_ows_has_transformed_public_opinion/

Oh, so they've influenced a nation so full of people who are so apathetic and lazy that they didn't know their own government was running this way until these people camped on Wall Street?

That sounds really effective as far as affecting change. I mean, we have the numbers now; who cares if they're made up of people who won't do anything other than nod yes when someone asks them if they agree?

Be realistic. The way the government functions and is set up at this point is something that a protest like this can't change, no matter how much public poll support papers say is behind it. Change doesn't happen when it's being spearheaded by a group of people who have no clear cut way to achieve what they want, and are backed by people unwilling, for the most part, to do much but talk about an idealistic notion they like, but won't work for.
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#20
Quote by ErikLensherr
90 self-described tea partiers in Congress. And a GOP pushed further right than probably any point in the party's history. They won't even countenance raising taxes on the wealthy by a few percentage points to 90s levels for fear of invoking a primary challenge. I'd say that's pretty damn effective.


You don't win the white house by rallying a crazy vocal minority. You win it by rallying the majority of your base(See: Not-crazy republicans), and the neutral crowd. Not being the incumbent helps too unless the president is someone awesome like Teddy Roosevelt. All they've done is gunk up the system, which they're bitching about now. It's not progress in their favor, it's a standstill, and given the Tea Party presidential candidates aren't frontrunners, I'd say it's not looking good for them come next election.

I'm satisfied with Occupy protests as a start considering the alternative of sitting on our asses and doing nothing. What would you suggest?


I'd suggest what I've already suggested; a clear-cut goal. Get someone with the brains, understanding of the environment, and eloquence to give the movement something to actually back instead of just shouting an ideal.

That's just wrong, though. Read this posting by Robert Reich:
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/31/how_ows_has_transformed_public_opinion/


Hmm...this could change some things. I'm speaking from my experience, most people I know have been put off by the whole Occupy X thing. Myself included. I'm curious now though if that's the majority or just where I live, or if it is the majority and that's just where Mr. Reich is.

Even then though, popular opinion is useless if you don't use it. Which they're not.
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Last edited by necrosis1193 at Nov 6, 2011,
#21
Quote by bradulator
The problem isn't their means of protesting, it's that they haven't yet achieved the next step in inciting change. They need to get out of the simple protest stage in order to make the OWS Movement legitimate. The Occupy Protests are pretty legitimate and voice legitimate concerns. But the Movement itself is not.

Needs more organization.

Sure, there's room for improvement in anything. I just don't see how it's in any way productive for people to gripe and nitpick at a protest movement they ostensibly agree with. It's so silly.

Quote by necrosis1193
You don't win the white house by rallying a crazy vocal minority. You win it by rallying the majority of your base(See: Not-crazy republicans), and the neutral crowd. Not being the incumbent helps too unless the president is someone awesome like Teddy Roosevelt. All they've done is gunk up the system, which they're bitching about now. It's not progress in their favor, it's a standstill, and given the Tea Party presidential candidates aren't frontrunners, I'd say it's not looking good for them come next election.

They won huge majorities in the House and will likely win the Senate in 2012 fueled by the tea party. This is not something I've ever heard, that the tea party is not important for the GOP. They're hugely important, they're how the party went from the shitter following Bush's presidency to the biggest take-back election since the 40s. There's a reason even the supposedly moderate guys in the primary like Romney will not speak ill of the tea party and have even shifted far to the right compared to their previous positions on things like immigration, abortion, taxes, etc. They're scared. That is power. And sad to say, independents are kinda stupid. If it's a really out there guy like Herman Cain or Bachmann they may not vote for them, but if it was Perry or new right-wing Romney, I'd put the odds on them over Obama.

Quote by necrosis1193
I'd suggest what I've already suggested; a clear-cut goal. Get someone with the brains, understanding of the environment, and eloquence to give the movement something to actually back instead of just shouting an ideal.
So you want a leader? Well, leaders for these sorts of things are usually pretty balls. Opportunistic types like Eugene McCarthy, who came in and tried to speak for the anti-Vietnam protest movement, tried to use it to nab the Democratic nomination, failed and then simply disappeared. Movements work better when they're decentralized and aren't reliant on a leader.

Although I'd say there are figures right now starting to fulfill that constructive role and benefiting from the public support Occupy's drumming up. Off the top of my head, Elizabeth Warren running for Senate in Massachusetts, and Eric Schneiderman (NYS Attorney General) and a few other Attorneys Generals like Beau Biden in Delaware starting to really go after the banks.
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Last edited by ErikLensherr at Nov 6, 2011,
#22
Quote by ErikLensherr
Sure, there's room for improvement in anything. I just don't see how it's in any way productive for people to gripe and nitpick at a protest movement they ostensibly agree with. It's so silly.


It's not. But neither is a protest that disrupts so much in daily life that shows little signs of progressing. It can only go on so long until it becomes pointless, annoying, and a waste of time. I'd say they're getting near the deadline for when something progressive needs to happen.

Cool that they're using their right to protest. But then what?
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#23
Quote by ErikLensherr
Sure, there's room for improvement in anything. I just don't see how it's in any way productive for people to gripe and nitpick at a protest movement they ostensibly agree with. It's so silly.


Because in my mind, they're doing more harm than help to a cause I want to support.

They won huge majorities in the House and will likely win the Senate in 2012 fueled by the tea party. This is not something I've ever heard, that the tea party is not important for the GOP. They're hugely important, they're how the party went from the shitter following Bush's presidency to the biggest take-back election since the 40s. There's a reason even the supposedly moderate guys i the primary like Romney will not speak ill of the tea party and have even shifted far to the rigt compared to their previous positions on things like immigration, abortion, taxes, etc. They're scared. That is power.


I've had a nasty habit of forgetting the Republican debates were on and watching something else until the last two minutes, so I can't confirm or deny this. Benefit of the doubt though, innocent until proven guilty, blah blah blah, so I'll take your word for it. An important question though - how are their constituents feeling?

So you want a leader? Well, leaders for these sorts of things are usually pretty balls. Opportunistic types like Eugene McCarthy, who came in and tried to speak for the anti-Vietnam protest movement, tried to use it to nab the Democratic nomination, failed and then simply disappeared. Movements work better when they're decentralized and aren't reliant on a leader.


Except that when they're decentralized, there's no organization. It's kind of a problem when you have 500 people claiming to speak for the movement with different goals, ideals, and demands. And frankly I'd say the civil rights movement wouldn't have done as well without a voice, and sadly later a martyr, in the form of Dr. King.

Although I'd say there are figures right now starting to fulfill that constructive role and benefiting from the public support Occupy's drumming up. Off the top of my head, Elizabeth Warren running for Senate in Massachusetts, and Eric Schneiderman (NYS Attorney General) and a few other Attorneys Generals like Beau Biden in Delaware starting to really go after the banks.


Again, I have not been following it, so I'll take your word for it, but I can't see something so disorganized affecting more than a handful of politicians.
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Last edited by necrosis1193 at Nov 6, 2011,
#25
You have to keep in mind, before you accuse Occupy of detracting from their own cause, that there was really no cause to speak of before the protests started. No one was talking about raising taxes on the rich or further regulating the financial industry in a serious way except on a few blogs and maybe a couple hosts on MSNBC. The narrative was entirely driven by the right-wing in the aftermath of their 2010 midterm victory, and the Obama administration and Congressional Democrats caving in on one issue after another. At the very least, give Occupy credit for altering the conversation.

Quote by necrosis1193
I've had a nasty habit of forgetting the Republican debates were on and watching something else until the last two minutes, so I can't confirm or deny this. Benefit of the doubt though, innocent until proven guilty, blah blah blah, so I'll take your word for it. An important question though - how are their constituents feeling?

Well the polls show it's a tie right now between Herman Cain and Romney with Perry not far behind, Jon Huntsman, arguably the most prominent 'voice of reason' in the race, is in the single digits. Buddy Roemer, the only GOP candidate I know of advocating campaign finance reform, isn't even allowed into the debates. It's safe to say the GOP is more right-wing than ever right now.
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#26
Quote by Butt Rayge
lol the 99% are dirty hippy drug addicts


One must agree
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#27
That's the thing though - they've shifted it to, from what I've seen and heard from people around me, and my few personal experiences with people involved in it, a discussion of the issue. One that's slanted against it for the most part. And frankly, they're not making anyone talk about it in a serious way, because just saying "Less business in government, more accountability!" isn't a serious way of talking about it. All they've done is bring attention. Negative attention, based on my observations.
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Last edited by necrosis1193 at Nov 6, 2011,
#28
Quote by necrosis1193
That's the thing though - they've shifted it to, from what I've seen and heard from people around me, and my few personal experiences with people involved in it, a discussion of the issue. One that's slanted against it for the most part. And frankly, they're not making anyone talk about it in a serious way, because just saying "Less business in government, more accountability!" isn't a serious way of talking about it. All they've done is bring attention. Negative attention, based on my observations.

My experience is just different then. I see people all over my school, including professors you wouldn't expect to support the movement (like one English professor of mine who used to work at Davis Polk, a Wall Street law firm) really excited about politics and public policy for the first time since pretty much Obama's election. People are taking to the streets and finally saying what everyone here has been thinking. Courage is contagious and whatnot.
Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#29
I hate the Tea Party.

I hate Occupy Wall-Street.

Make taxes for everyone equal, close corporate tax loopholes, and everything might just work out. Or not, no matter what happens, people will bitch about it.
#31
Quote by metalh3ad88
I hate the Tea Party.

I hate Occupy Wall-Street.

Make taxes for everyone equal, close corporate tax loopholes, and everything might just work out. Or not, no matter what happens, people will bitch about it.

Herp derp, you're complaining about the people trying to cause change whilst you're doing **** all. Well done bro.
#32
Quote by Zoot Allures
Herp derp, you're complaining about the people trying to cause change whilst you're doing **** all. Well done bro.


I have a very important question;

what are you doing to cause change, again?
#36
Quote by Butt Rayge
Quite a sound argument you have there.


Zoot didn't ask any question, but rather he was questioned. So how was the other guy avoiding Zoot's non-existent question?

What the shit is going on here?
#37
Quote by Vitor_vdp
Zoot didn't ask any question, but rather he was questioned. So how was the other guy avoiding Zoot's non-existent question?

What the shit is going on here?

Pay attention. It's only like 4 posts up, for ****s sake.
#38
Quote by Vitor_vdp
Zoot didn't ask any question, but rather he was questioned. So how was the other guy avoiding Zoot's non-existent question?

What the shit is going on here?

Your point would have been clearer to all involved if you had said 'you didn't ask a question,' as opposed to ' .'

I can only assume Zoot meant he was avoiding the issue, rather than the question.
#40
Quote by Vitor_vdp
Zoot didn't ask any question, but rather he was questioned. So how was the other guy avoiding Zoot's non-existent question?

What the shit is going on here?

I guess i meant 'avoiding the point'. He's trying to take what i said away from him and turn it onto me on a tangent. Something unrelated to what i said aswell, it's not about me.
Last edited by Zoot Allures at Nov 6, 2011,
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