#1
Ok, I've hit a bit of a snag in my studies here.

Those in the know, know that E Natural Minor is E F# G A B C D E, and that the chords go Em F#dim GM Am Bm CM DM Em...

Then there's the Diminished 7th chord, which goes R b3 b5 bb7.

If one is using 7th chord variations of the Triads, how then does the bb7 of the dim chord fit into the scale when... as far as I've been able to work out, the bb7 of the F#dim7 chord isn't in the scale of E Natural Minor, as it's not E but Eb!?
"grateful is he who plays with open fingers" - Me

┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐

DO NOT CLICK HERE!
#2
dude i made a thread about the exact same thing yesterday... it even has nearly the exact same name. check the first page your answer should be there.

dim7 doesnt fit diatonically in natural minor, but you can play m7b5 arpeggios.
Last edited by tappooh at Nov 6, 2011,
#3
The Diminished 7th would be built on the #7th degree of the Harmonic Minor
1 b3 b5 bb7
The harmonic minor's function is so that Minor can perform an authentic cadence like a piece in major can, featuring a dominant chord (in this case would be B7) and leading tone chord (diminished) (in this case D#dim)
#4
Quote by Outside Octaves
Ok, I've hit a bit of a snag in my studies here.

Those in the know, know that E Natural Minor is E F# G A B C D E, and that the chords go Em F#dim GM Am Bm CM DM Em...

Then there's the Diminished 7th chord, which goes R b3 b5 bb7.

If one is using 7th chord variations of the Triads, how then does the bb7 of the dim chord fit into the scale when... as far as I've been able to work out, the bb7 of the F#dim7 chord isn't in the scale of E Natural Minor, as it's not E but Eb!?

When composers compose in minor keys, they don't just stick with the chords that are diatonic to the Natural Minor Scale.

It's very common to borrow chords from the other 2 minor scales also.
#5
You can't use a Dim7 diatonically in any key, as it always makes you utilize accidentals from outside the key. But, you can utilize it by using Harmonic minor, and borrowing notes from parallel keys.
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Nov 6, 2011,
#6
Things you need to do:

1) Understand the difference between a half diminished and a diminished 7th chord

2) Get out of the mindset that all music fits into a diatonic scale. It doesn't. Most pieces of music probably use 10-all 12 notes of the chromatic scale at some point or another, through modulations, chromatic/borrowed/altered chords, melodic and harmonic decoration...
#7
griff:

1) I'm not quite at that point yet, though i am on the path to learning such things. Thanks for the input, a post I will need to keep in mind when I get there.

2) Wow, i think you read a bit too much into what I was asking here lol. I know what you're talking about here to one degree or another already. I was just inquiring about dim7 chords and how they fit and/or don't fit the key heh... seems they don't. Which means I'll just have to keep that in mind, and eventually learn the other dim. chord types to help me.

(after the first line of my signature, one would think that most people would get that I'm musicly open minded lol. I know not everything fits diatonic theory... in fact a lot of stuff goes chromatic... hehe. Don't take that as me being stubborn, I'm just saying a lot of people take my questions as me being closed minded about things lol)
"grateful is he who plays with open fingers" - Me

┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐

DO NOT CLICK HERE!
Last edited by Outside Octaves at Nov 8, 2011,
#8
Quote by griffRG7321

2) Get out of the mindset that all music fits into a diatonic scale. It doesn't. Most pieces of music probably use 10-all 12 notes of the chromatic scale at some point or another, through modulations, chromatic/borrowed/altered chords, melodic and harmonic decoration...


Although true this thought might raise a problem with a learner. When one has learned the notes and chords of the diatonic scales they become something of a comfort zone. It comes as a shock to learn that music routinely breaches this zone. One might think "if the dim7 can be used why can't I use anything non-diatonic I like?", with no knowledge of what will or won't sound good. The learner is thrown back to where they were before they learned the scales and chords with a feeling of 'three steps backwards'.

So where does the learner go for the next step, once the scales and chords are learned, to see how these may be altered?
#9
Remember, a Key is not a scale. The Key is what everything relates from and back to.

The Minor Key is much more involved that "starting on the 6th note of a Major scale". It's musical.

The Minor Key can consist of the Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic Minor scales individually, in combinations, or all at once. This is all due to the "five" chord being either a Vm or a V7. The Natural Minor produces a Vm->Im cadence (or tension to resolution), and the Harmonic and Melodic Minor scales produce a V7->Im cadence (or tension to resolution). The Vm->Im cadence is a little more subtle than the stronger/abrupt V7->Im cadence.

Take a look at this link as it shows an exercise in planting the dim7 sounds in your ear as well as your head, and the dim7 is only the start, there's not only 4 dim7 chords in the Minor Key but also 3 augmented chords, the link explains it:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28484008&postcount=10

This is a great way to experiment with tension and release, as well as play "music" as opposed to "scales".

And don't forget, a Minor Key can also borrow chords from the Major Key, and vice verse.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Nov 8, 2011,
#10
Quote by MikeDodge


The Minor Key can consist of the Natural, Harmonic, and Melodic Minor scales individually, in combinations, or all at once. This is all due to the "five" chord being either a Vm or a V7. The Natural Minor produces a Vm->Im cadence (or tension to resolution), and the Harmonic and Melodic Minor scales produce a V7->Im cadence (or tension to resolution). The Vm->Im cadence is a little more subtle than the stronger/abrupt V7->Im cadence.




I might be waaaaay off here, but I always thought that Vm -> Im is not considered a cadence, hence the need for the raised 7th?