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#1
Just wondering if i bought a pedal that uses tubes in it, like a Effectrode Tube Drive pedal, and used it with a solid state amp, would it make the amp sound like a tube amp?
#2
Nothing will make your amp sound like a tube amp. It might be a cool pedal that gives you a good sound, but only tubes in your amp will give you a tube amp sound.
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#3
Shit that's an expensive pedal - just use the money + money from selling your amp and buy a used 30watt tube.
Last edited by Necronomicon at Nov 14, 2011,
#4
not exactly it would sound like a solid state power amp with a tube amp preamp

depending on how you expect a tube amp to sound it might
it doesnt do the job for me
power tube distortion
#6
alright then, I was just looking for a cheap way to get a tube amp sound, haha :P guess theres no way getting around buying an actual tube amp, ey?
#7
Here's what goes into the tone of a tube amp:
Slow attack from the vacuum, which gets more pronounced with each tube.
Compression from uneven response.
Second-order harmonics from asymmetrical operation in the preamp.
Various tonal artifacts in the phase inverter.
Third-order harmonics from the power amp.
Significant filtering from the output transformer (except in a Soldano ).
Speaker coloration.

So no, a pedal won't get you all the way there. Will it sound good? Could be, won't know unless you try. Will it sound like a tube amp? Nopers.
Money beats soul every time.

Money beats soul...every time.

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#8
Quote by AeolianSeventh
Here's what goes into the tone of a tube amp:
Slow attack from the vacuum, which gets more pronounced with each tube.
Compression from uneven response.
Second-order harmonics from asymmetrical operation in the preamp.
Various tonal artifacts in the phase inverter.
Third-order harmonics from the power amp.
Significant filtering from the output transformer (except in a Soldano ).
Speaker coloration.

So no, a pedal won't get you all the way there. Will it sound good? Could be, won't know unless you try. Will it sound like a tube amp? Nopers.


The **** does the first one mean? And the second for that matter? And OT filtering?

Even order harmonics are generated when the grid impedance falls when the input signal rises, leading to a gradual decrease of the slope of the sine until it becomes 0, which is clipping. The typical bias set up causes the up slope to be sharper than the down slope. The even order harmonics are generated at the point where the slope is changing. The odd order harmonics are generated when the slope is 0.

Tonal artifacts from the phase inverter? Maybe. When the power tubes have a large signal at the grid, they can start drawing excess current and the phase inverter will attempt to supply it, causing distortion since it can't. This can be prevented somewhat (and is in some bass amps such as the SVT and SRV's Dumble) by putting cathode followers after the phase inverter and before the power tube grids.

The OT's core can saturate when it's power handling is exceeded, causing distortion. SS amps don't get that since they don't have (or require) OTs (though there are some early SS amps that use them and some tube designs that don't). Frequency response is also a factor. In the early days, OTs were typically rated for the RMS output and had a limited frequency response. So when guitarists pushed their amps past that point, all sorts of cool things started happening.

By saying speaker coloration is part of the tube amp sound, you're implying that it isn't a factor in the tone of solid state amps, when in reality it is.

I dunno, maybe you're trying to explain it in a way that someone with no knowledge might understand but it's open to misinterpretation and that always leads to problems.
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#9
Quote by AeolianSeventh
Here's what goes into the tone of a tube amp:
Slow attack from the vacuum, which gets more pronounced with each tube.
Compression from uneven response.
Second-order harmonics from asymmetrical operation in the preamp.
Various tonal artifacts in the phase inverter.
Third-order harmonics from the power amp.
Significant filtering from the output transformer (except in a Soldano ).
Speaker coloration.

So no, a pedal won't get you all the way there. Will it sound good? Could be, won't know unless you try. Will it sound like a tube amp? Nopers.


lol. i laffed. it's like a 3 year old telling me where babies come from.

ok so like first mommy has to call the stork on the telephone.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#10
You could just buy a used or even new tube amp for the price of that pedal lol
I searched it up and its like 400 dollars...
Last edited by coolstoryangus at Nov 14, 2011,
#11
Hybrid Amp.
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#12
Quote by The Milk-Man
alright then, I was just looking for a cheap way to get a tube amp sound, haha :P guess theres no way getting around buying an actual tube amp, ey?

The pedal costs $400. For $350, you can get a Jet City 1x12 stack or combo amp, both all-tube.
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#13
Quote by AeolianSeventh
Here's what goes into the tone of a tube amp:
Slow attack from the vacuum, which gets more pronounced with each tube.
Compression from uneven response.
Second-order harmonics from asymmetrical operation in the preamp.
Various tonal artifacts in the phase inverter.
Third-order harmonics from the power amp.
Significant filtering from the output transformer (except in a Soldano ).
Speaker coloration.

So no, a pedal won't get you all the way there. Will it sound good? Could be, won't know unless you try. Will it sound like a tube amp? Nopers.

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#14
Quote by mmolteratx
The **** does the first one mean? And the second for that matter? And OT filtering?

Well, compared to a transistor, vacuum tubes have a slow attack. It takes a few more milliseconds to "open" the valve, so to speak, which most people hear as softening the initial spike of volume in a note. The compression isn't on all amps, but if the plate voltage on a tube is fairly high, it'll start amplifying less efficiently before it clips, providing subtle but noticeable compression. By OT filtering I mean the output transformer taking off some highs and low when pushed (although Mike Soldano claims his special OT doesn't ever affect frequency response--see ).

As for the speakers, I was including all the things that go into "that tone." Some of them are found in SS amps, hybrids, what have you. I mean, some solid state Peaveys have output trannies specifically to get that filtering. My point was that adding any one of these elements won't give you the whole tone.
Money beats soul every time.

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#15
this is golden.


TS - no.
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#16
Quote by AeolianSeventh
Well, compared to a transistor, vacuum tubes have a slow attack. It takes a few more milliseconds to "open" the valve, so to speak, which most people hear as softening the initial spike of volume in a note. The compression isn't on all amps, but if the plate voltage on a tube is fairly high, it'll start amplifying less efficiently before it clips, providing subtle but noticeable compression. By OT filtering I mean the output transformer taking off some highs and low when pushed (although Mike Soldano claims his special OT doesn't ever affect frequency response--see ).

As for the speakers, I was including all the things that go into "that tone." Some of them are found in SS amps, hybrids, what have you. I mean, some solid state Peaveys have output trannies specifically to get that filtering. My point was that adding any one of these elements won't give you the whole tone.


?

How much do you actually know about tube amps or electronics in general?
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#17
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If this even madkes sense... if yhou sig this, Iw ll kill you.
#19
does painting a rock with gold paint make it gold?

no, it will look better, but it wont be the real deal.
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#20
Quote by mmolteratx
The **** does the first one mean? And the second for that matter? And OT filtering?

Even order harmonics are generated when the grid impedance falls when the input signal rises, leading to a gradual decrease of the slope of the sine until it becomes 0, which is clipping. The typical bias set up causes the up slope to be sharper than the down slope. The even order harmonics are generated at the point where the slope is changing. The odd order harmonics are generated when the slope is 0.

Tonal artifacts from the phase inverter? Maybe. When the power tubes have a large signal at the grid, they can start drawing excess current and the phase inverter will attempt to supply it, causing distortion since it can't. This can be prevented somewhat (and is in some bass amps such as the SVT and SRV's Dumble) by putting cathode followers after the phase inverter and before the power tube grids.

The OT's core can saturate when it's power handling is exceeded, causing distortion. SS amps don't get that since they don't have (or require) OTs (though there are some early SS amps that use them and some tube designs that don't). Frequency response is also a factor. In the early days, OTs were typically rated for the RMS output and had a limited frequency response. So when guitarists pushed their amps past that point, all sorts of cool things started happening.

By saying speaker coloration is part of the tube amp sound, you're implying that it isn't a factor in the tone of solid state amps, when in reality it is.

I dunno, maybe you're trying to explain it in a way that someone with no knowledge might understand but it's open to misinterpretation and that always leads to problems.





Quote by AcousticMirror
lol. i laffed. it's like a 3 year old telling me where babies come from.


#21
Quote by mmolteratx
?

How much do you actually know about tube amps or electronics in general?

However much you can learn by owning eight tube amps, designing two, building three, modding four, repairing a dozen or so, reading most of the Radiotron Desginer's Handbook, and having a long chat with Hartley Peavey about the whole "Transtube" concept. So...a moderate amount? I mean, I'm no Cathbard, but I'm not just pulling this out of my ass either. It's based on either reputable sources or independent testing and experimentation.
Money beats soul every time.

Money beats soul...every time.

Money...beats soul...every...goddamn...time.
#22
Quote by AeolianSeventh
Well, compared to a transistor, vacuum tubes have a slow attack. It takes a few more milliseconds to "open" the valve, so to speak, which most people hear as softening the initial spike of volume in a note. The compression isn't on all amps, but if the plate voltage on a tube is fairly high, it'll start amplifying less efficiently before it clips, providing subtle but noticeable compression. By OT filtering I mean the output transformer taking off some highs and low when pushed (although Mike Soldano claims his special OT doesn't ever affect frequency response--see ).

As for the speakers, I was including all the things that go into "that tone." Some of them are found in SS amps, hybrids, what have you. I mean, some solid state Peaveys have output trannies specifically to get that filtering. My point was that adding any one of these elements won't give you the whole tone.


What are you talking about? This reads like a bad attempt at explaining tube rectifiers.
#25
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
<insert appropriate alien pic here>

wimp.

do it.
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#27
Quote by AeolianSeventh
However much you can learn by owning eight tube amps, designing two, building three, modding four, repairing a dozen or so, reading most of the Radiotron Desginer's Handbook, and having a long chat with Hartley Peavey about the whole "Transtube" concept. So...a moderate amount? I mean, I'm no Cathbard, but I'm not just pulling this out of my ass either. It's based on either reputable sources or independent testing and experimentation.


I mean, you're somewhat correct but it seems like you drew some wrong conclusions after reading some of the more advance stuff. Will explain further when I get to a real computer.
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#28
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#29
Quote by AeolianSeventh
Well, compared to a transistor, vacuum tubes have a slow attack. It takes a few more milliseconds to "open" the valve, so to speak, which most people hear as softening the initial spike of volume in a note. The compression isn't on all amps, but if the plate voltage on a tube is fairly high, it'll start amplifying less efficiently before it clips, providing subtle but noticeable compression. By OT filtering I mean the output transformer taking off some highs and low when pushed (although Mike Soldano claims his special OT doesn't ever affect frequency response--see ).

As for the speakers, I was including all the things that go into "that tone." Some of them are found in SS amps, hybrids, what have you. I mean, some solid state Peaveys have output trannies specifically to get that filtering. My point was that adding any one of these elements won't give you the whole tone.


All right, I'll point out the things that make me . Maybe it's explained in the Radiotron Handbook, I haven't dug my copy out in a while. If you happen to have page numbers or even general sections that contain the info, it'd be much appreciated. If I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.

The attack thing. What makes a valve have an inherently slower attack? I don't know if "opening" the valve is a metaphor/comparison to a water valve but it doesn't really make any sense. If you design the power supply correctly, the voltage shouldn't sag under any condition and the attack will be as fast as you want it.

The compression is there regardless of plate voltage. As the signal at the grid swings more positive and more negative, the gain decreases due to the shape of the plate characteristics graph since a tube can't produce a signal greater than the HT voltage. In reality, a lower plate voltage will give less clean headroom before clipping and greater compression.

It isn't really difficult to produce an output transformer with a (as close as reality allows) perfect frequency response across the audio range under normal conditions. And that's what Mike has DeYoung do for the SLO. It's just expensive and the end result is larger than a similarly rated OT with crappier freq response. Most guys today are also designing OTs around PT principles since audio transformers are nearly extinct. Max power transfer is more important to them than audio properties.

Agreed with the last point though. The end result is a sum of the parts and I think that's your point over all. I just think you've got some of the details wrong.
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#30
Quote by AeolianSeventh
However much you can learn by owning eight tube amps, designing two, building three, modding four, repairing a dozen or so, reading most of the Radiotron Desginer's Handbook, and having a long chat with Hartley Peavey about the whole "Transtube" concept. So...a moderate amount? I mean, I'm no Cathbard, but I'm not just pulling this out of my ass either. It's based on either reputable sources or independent testing and experimentation.


you don't know jack shit.

everything you say is wrong.


Quote by AeolianSeventh
Well, compared to a transistor, vacuum tubes have a slow attack. It takes a few more milliseconds to "open" the valve, so to speak, which most people hear as softening the initial spike of volume in a note. The compression isn't on all amps, but if the plate voltage on a tube is fairly high, it'll start amplifying less efficiently before it clips, providing subtle but noticeable compression. By OT filtering I mean the output transformer taking off some highs and low when pushed (although Mike Soldano claims his special OT doesn't ever affect frequency response--see ).

As for the speakers, I was including all the things that go into "that tone." Some of them are found in SS amps, hybrids, what have you. I mean, some solid state Peaveys have output trannies specifically to get that filtering. My point was that adding any one of these elements won't give you the whole tone.


I mean I don't really give a damn about educating you so I'm not even going to try to explain this but first things first.

1. vacuum tubes have a faster attack possibility then transistors. the switching time of a vacuum tube is instantaneous. that's why you there's no hash noise.

2. ot filtering? are you home schooled? THD, Soldano, Fortin, Fryette as well as a bunch of other guys use Deyoung/Onetics transformers. It's a 300 dollar transformer just for the output transformer and weighs more then most amps. Diezel uses the same types of transformers.

3. just give up.

Reading radiotron huh. We got a genius over here guys. Making you can help me with a direct coupled cathode follower with a constant current sink regulated by a valve voltage regulator driving a telegraph line.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#31
Did your wang just grow Min? Surely you had something to gain from being a dick. Even Matt, who is known for being harsh, found a way to not be a complete ass.
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Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
Last edited by tubetime86 at Nov 14, 2011,
#32
Quote by tubetime86
Did your wang just grow Min? Surely you had something to gain from being a dick. Even Matt, who is known for being harsh, found a way to not be a complete ass.


no i'm just like this all the time.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#33
Quote by AcousticMirror
you don't know jack shit.

everything you say is wrong.


I mean I don't really give a damn about educating you so I'm not even going to try to explain this but first things first.

1. vacuum tubes have a faster attack possibility then transistors. the switching time of a vacuum tube is instantaneous. that's why you there's no hash noise.

2. ot filtering? are you home schooled? THD, Soldano, Fortin, Fryette as well as a bunch of other guys use Deyoung/Onetics transformers. It's a 300 dollar transformer just for the output transformer and weighs more then most amps. Diezel uses the same types of transformers.

3. just give up.

Reading radiotron huh. We got a genius over here guys. Making you can help me with a direct coupled cathode follower with a constant current sink regulated by a valve voltage regulator driving a telegraph line.

I wondered when you'd show up. You're right about everything. The capacitance of a vacuum tube doesn't affect attack time. All output transformers are rated for more power than they'll need, which is why there's no reason to pay extra for a Soldano when you could get a Jet City that's the same except for the transformers. The Radiotron guide's useless--I don't know why every amp tech and designer I've ever spoken to told me to read it. Officially quitting electrical engineering over here.

So OP, yes, that pedal will make your amp sound exactly like a tube amp.
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Last edited by AeolianSeventh at Nov 14, 2011,
#34
Quote by AeolianSeventh
I wondered when you'd show up. You're right about everything. The capacitance of a vacuum tube doesn't affect attack time. All output transformers are rated for more power than they'll need, which is why there's no reason to pay extra for a Soldano when you could get a Jet City that's the same except for the transformers. The Radiotron guide's useless--I don't know why every amp tech and designer I've ever spoken to told me to read it.

Also, you were right in that thread where you said a Line 6 Spider III was better than a used Orange and the one where you said the minimum size for an amp to take to gigs is fifty watts. It's why it's so easy to take your advice seriously and give up.

So OP, yes, that pedal will make your amp sound exactly like a tube amp.


right because frequency response is a factor of power and not of load to load matching in relation to frequency.

because all inductive components have perfectly flat and ideal frequency response no matter what and all transformers are the same.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#35
Yes, making using a tube pedal through a solid state will make you sound like you're playing a tube amp. Everyone in here is wrong.

Also, did you guys know that adding a few pieces of fiberglass to a car with a V4 engine will make it drive and have the power of a Ferrari?
Last edited by darkwolf291 at Nov 14, 2011,
#36
using a tube pedal through a solid state amp will sound like using a tube pedal through a solid state amp, unless the amp has a fx loop and you run the tube pedal into that bypassing the preamp, then it will sound like a tube pedal through a solid state power amp
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#37
A nice easy way to get tube amp-ish sound out of a solid state is a digitech bad monkey overdrive it's very cheap and has a very warm sound for the cheap price
#39
Quote by GUITARCHRISCOOL
A nice easy way to get tube amp-ish sound out of a solid state is a digitech bad monkey overdrive it's very cheap and has a very warm sound for the cheap price

sorry but no, not knocking the bad monkey, but it doesn't sound like a tube amp
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I don't know how to count canadians, the metric system is hard

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well if lbj pokes his head in here and there's no nuts shit's gonna go doooooooowwwwwwwwwn.



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