#1
Hi guys, I've been wondering if I could buy some cheapish Guitar, preferably Les Paul Style, and install some very good Pups...would I get a decent sound from it? This would become my second guitar.
As I play mostly Heavy Metal and Hard Rock, which Pups would you recommend and how much would that cost, if the guitar is at, let's say, ~50€ ?
#2
If that was the case, don't you think a lot more people would play cheaper guitars and not worry about buying more expensive one?

And at 50€, it's gunna sound like a bucket of shit whatever you do to it.
#3
I don't expect to get the sound from a 1000+€ guitar, just a "decent" sound, maybe comparable to something like the GRG170 series by Ibanez or something like that. But I get your point...
#4
Yes, pickups are important, bu the kickass sound of an awesome guitar comes from more than that. It's the parts combined that make it what it is, not just one thing being superior to the others
#7
What matters the most is a good amp. I personally do not care about what wood my guitar has. Ive used alder, agathis, basswood, mahogany, and just plain plywood guitars with cheap pickups in all of them and I was able to get a good sound of each one. Listen to this guy. http://www.youtube.com/user/rmenga#p/u/54/aOEFxZV7kJ8 thats a MIK squier II with stock pickups.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rmenga#p/u/42/Dm3ghjpjak4
Last edited by Darkdevil725 at Nov 25, 2011,
#9
no matter how many diamonds you put on a pile of shit, its still gonna be a pile of shit.
#10
Most of the tone comes from your pickups, from your amp and the scale length on your guitar, not really from build quality or materials used. If you stick nice electronics in an Epiphone les paul, it'll sound just fine.

Playability is the biggest factor that is determined by a quality made guitar vs. a cheaper one, not tone. Will it stay in tune, are there dead spots on the neck, will it sustain well, workmanship on the frets etc...
Last edited by earthwormjim at Nov 25, 2011,
#11
the only way i would go about it is to buy a lower end agile al series (since u mentioned lp style) and buying some good pups.
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#12
Quote by Darkdevil725
What matters the most is a good amp. I personally do not care about what wood my guitar has. Ive used alder, agathis, basswood, mahogany, and just plain plywood guitars with cheap pickups in all of them and I was able to get a good sound of each one. Listen to this guy. http://www.youtube.com/user/rmenga#p/u/54/aOEFxZV7kJ8 thats a MIK squier II with stock pickups.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rmenga#p/u/42/Dm3ghjpjak4


This is buy the same guy in the clips above, he makes a squier sound ok.
http://www.youtube.com/user/rmenga#p/u/25/4hxVRtzMbXc
#13
Quote by earthwormjim
Most of the tone comes from your pickups, from your amp and the scale length on your guitar, not really from build quality or materials used. If you stick nice electronics in an Epiphone les paul, it'll sound just fine.

Playability is the biggest factor that is determined by a quality made guitar vs. a cheaper one, not tone. Will it stay in tune, are there dead spots on the neck, will it sustain well, workmanship on the frets etc...


I agree with this 100%
#14
Quote by earthwormjim
Most of the tone comes from your pickups, from your amp and the scale length on your guitar, not really from build quality or materials used. If you stick nice electronics in an Epiphone les paul, it'll sound just fine.

Playability is the biggest factor that is determined by a quality made guitar vs. a cheaper one, not tone. Will it stay in tune, are there dead spots on the neck, will it sustain well, workmanship on the frets etc...
+X^0

Although I'd say amp will have the most impact.

#15
Quote by Ippon
+X^0

Although I'd say amp will have the most impact.



Definitely. Has anyone heard an electric guitar in a standard hi-fi amp? It sounds like garbage!
#16
Quote by earthwormjim
Most of the tone comes from your pickups, from your amp and the scale length on your guitar, not really from build quality or materials used. If you stick nice electronics in an Epiphone les paul, it'll sound just fine.


What utter bollocks. If this was true all guitars would be made out of plastic or carbon-fibre. Why do you think a Les Paul sounds different from an Ibanez RG, even if you put identical pickups in both and use the same amp? I'll give you a tip - it ain't the scale length. A Les Paul will usually have mahogany body + neck and the RG will have an alder body and maple neck. Both make big, big differences, as big as what pickups you use if not bigger. Ever wonder why LPs have that big roaring sound? It's the size of the body and the wood it's made from that resonates in a certain way. The resonance in a guitar is the most fundamental part of how it works. You get similar difference between brass bridges/saddles and zinc/steel bridges/saddles.

An amp will make a big difference to your sound but the idea that it doesn't matter if your guitar is made out of plywood or ash is an absolute joke. Play a plywood guitar through a good amp, then play an amp made out of solid wood through the same amp - if you have any kind of ear you'll tell the difference immediately.
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#17
Quote by Bidley
What utter bollocks. If this was true all guitars would be made out of plastic or carbon-fibre. Why do you think a Les Paul sounds different from an Ibanez RG, even if you put identical pickups in both and use the same amp? I'll give you a tip - it ain't the scale length. A Les Paul will usually have mahogany body + neck and the RG will have an alder body and maple neck. Both make big, big differences, as big as what pickups you use if not bigger. Ever wonder why LPs have that big roaring sound? It's the size of the body and the wood it's made from that resonates in a certain way. The resonance in a guitar is the most fundamental part of how it works. You get similar difference between brass bridges/saddles and zinc/steel bridges/saddles.

An amp will make a big difference to your sound but the idea that it doesn't matter if your guitar is made out of plywood or ash is an absolute joke. Play a plywood guitar through a good amp, then play an amp made out of solid wood through the same amp - if you have any kind of ear you'll tell the difference immediately.


I never said it didn't matter, however the wood type plays a lesser role compared to your pickups, amp and scale length.

There are carbon fiber guitars, they sound fine.
Last edited by earthwormjim at Nov 26, 2011,
#18
Quote by earthwormjim
I never said it didn't matter, however the wood type plays a lesser role compared to your pickups, amp and scale length.

There are carbon fiber guitars, they sound fine.


You said pups and amp matter more than materials used and build quality, which simply isn't true. Amp I can agree with, you can make a shitty guitar sound ok with a great amp, but not vice-versa. The scale length has little to do with the actual tone other than playability and intonation.
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#19
Quote by Bidley
You said pups and amp matter more than materials used and build quality, which simply isn't true. Amp I can agree with, you can make a shitty guitar sound ok with a great amp, but not vice-versa. The scale length has little to do with the actual tone other than playability and intonation.


You're joking right? Scale length affects the tension in the strings when tuned up, which does have an effect on the tone generated by the strings. If you don't believe that, then you probably think all string gauges sound the same.

You can even measure the difference: http://www.novaxguitars.com/info/technical.html

There's actual visible differences in the spectrograms.
Last edited by earthwormjim at Nov 26, 2011,
#20
Quote by earthwormjim
You're joking right? Scale length affects the tension in the strings when tuned up, which does have an effect on the tone generated by the strings. If you don't believe that, then you probably think all string gauges sound the same.

You can even measure the difference: http://www.novaxguitars.com/info/technical.html

There's actual visible differences in the spectrograms.


No, the inherent changes between guitars of different scale lengths change the tone, not the scale length in itself. String tension also has little to do with it, and the string gauge thing is irrelevant because it's quite clearly the thickness in the strings that make the tonal differences.
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#21
As for you guys arguing about materials, listen to the concrete guitar, listen to the james trussart steel bodied guitars, listen to jack white's fiberglass airline. It's all about how well the guitar is played, the pickups, and the amp. I built a guitar with a steel frame for a body once. It sounded like a guitar, but it had a shitty pickup so it was meh. Also, when I play my Yamaha EG-112 (cheapo guitar with cheap $40 pickups) into an amp modeller, I get a shitty tone, when I play into a nice tube amp it sounds great.
#22
Quote by Bidley
No, the inherent changes between guitars of different scale lengths change the tone, not the scale length in itself. String tension also has little to do with it, and the string gauge thing is irrelevant because it's quite clearly the thickness in the strings that make the tonal differences.




This comment alone reveals one of the following, or both at once:

1 - You have extremely limited experience playing different scale lengths and string gauges.

2 - You have a very poor ear for differences in tone.

Changing the scale length and string gauge makes an ENOURMOUS difference in tone! It's like night and day, black and white: I could easily pick out scale lengths blindfolded with another player playing the guitars, as well as changes in string gauge. If you think those variables don't make fundamental changes to guitar tone this dialogue is over for the two reasons posted above.
#23
Let's apply this to another "situation"!

It's like a 300+ pound guy using expensive Nike running shoes vs. a track-star!
Marshall 2008 MG100HDFX 100W Half-Stack
Epiphone 1998 Korina SG
Epiphone 1966 Custom Shop SG Reissue (Heritage Cherry)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Black (Plain-top)
Epiphone DR-100
Taylor Big Baby
Taylor Baby
#25
Quote by LeviMan_2001
The shoes are the guitar, right?



I didn't write the analogy, but I think he's referring to the shoes as pickups, e.g. that you can slap nice shoes (pickups) on a lazy fat guy (bad guitar), and you'll see an small improvement but that won't change the fact that he's fundamental a bad runner (bad guitar).

It sort of works.
#26
I've played the worst guitar I've ever played through a nice tube amp and it sounded pretty good, some £50 copy strat. Pickups will improve the sound allot but a good amp makes all the difference.
#27
If you take a cheap guitar, install decent to high-end pickups in it, you feel comfortable with the guitar and all, then you better have a nice tube amp or a really nice enough amp to make up for it or else.

Just about any guitar sounds best or beast when played through a good amp, regardless most of the time of what it is and what it has in it, there are many REALLY AWESOME guitar players that play guitars made out of strange materials live and still they just plainly sound in a way that makes your jaw drop because of the rest of their gear. Jack White is a perfect example with he's guitar made out of fiberglass, another one is the ex-guitarist of X-Japan Hide, he used another odd-ball guitar live too, and it was plainly awesome.

So the long answer made short. A cheap guitar will sound good, and better with nice pickups if played through an amplifier that would make justice to it.
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#28
People seem to be really overvaluing how much of an impact the construction of the guitar has on tone.

Electrics are not acoustics. The body construction and composition doesn't play an enormous role in sound quality. It can affect the sound quality, but will poor build quality make it sound like shit? I'd argue not.

I would argue that 85% of an electric guitar's tone is derived from the pickups. When you remember what an electric guitar is--essentially oscillating metal wire over a magnet to create a current which is then amplified and sent through a speaker--it's hard to imagine that the quality of the wood or how well its all bolted together will have a massive impact on tone.

A guitar's construction can determine a few things--sustain, resonance, extra warmth or brightness, tuning stability, comfort, playability, maybe even some subtle harmonics. It can impact tone, sure, but will a shitty guitar overpower great pickups and automatically render the tone bad? I say no.

An amp is really a more important factor here anyway. Just about any guitar played through a kickass amp will sound good. Just about any guitar played through a shitty amp will should terrible.
Last edited by Seref at Nov 29, 2011,
#29
Quote by Seref
People seem to be really overvaluing how much of an impact the construction of the guitar has on tone.

Electrics are not acoustics. The body construction and composition doesn't play an enormous role in sound quality. It can affect the sound quality, but will poor build quality make it sound like shit? I'd argue not.

I would argue that 85% of an electric guitar's tone is derived from the pickups. When you remember what an electric guitar is--essentially oscillating metal wire over a magnet to create a current which is then amplified and sent through a speaker--it's hard to imagine that the quality of the wood or how well its all bolted together will have a massive impact on tone.

A guitar's construction can determine a few things--sustain, resonance, extra warmth or brightness, tuning stability, comfort, playability, maybe even some subtle harmonics. It can impact tone, sure, but will a shitty guitar overpower great pickups and automatically render the tone bad? I say no.

An amp is really a more important factor here anyway. Just about any guitar played through a kickass amp will sound good. Just about any guitar played through a shitty amp will should terrible.



Add to this equation that you have some active pickups, some EMGS, you got yourself a zakk wylde tone on a 20 dollar dirtmade guitar.
#30
Quote by divinorum69
Add to this equation that you have some active pickups, some EMGS, you got yourself a zakk wylde tone on a 20 dollar dirtmade guitar.


Probably not, no. We're not claiming reproduction of tones here, but rather that great pickups + bad guitar = decent tone.

But hey, I'll argue that if you put an EMG 81/85 set in a $99 Epiphone and play it through a boosted JCM800 while running some uninspired pentatonic licks and using exaggerated vibrato, it'll sound passably like Zakk. At least until it falls out of tune in 3 minutes.
Last edited by Seref at Nov 29, 2011,
#31
Quote by Bidley
No, the inherent changes between guitars of different scale lengths change the tone, not the scale length in itself. String tension also has little to do with it, and the string gauge thing is irrelevant because it's quite clearly the thickness in the strings that make the tonal differences.


String tension most definitely alters tone. You clearly didn't even look at my link, and continue to demonstrate a lack of knowledge.
#32
Quote by lumberjack


This comment alone reveals one of the following, or both at once:

1 - You have extremely limited experience playing different scale lengths and string gauges.

2 - You have a very poor ear for differences in tone.

Changing the scale length and string gauge makes an ENOURMOUS difference in tone! It's like night and day, black and white: I could easily pick out scale lengths blindfolded with another player playing the guitars, as well as changes in string gauge. If you think those variables don't make fundamental changes to guitar tone this dialogue is over for the two reasons posted above.


So you're telling me a tele of two different scale lengths would sound sonically different? No, they wouldn't.

Why do people use capo's? If they did, the guitar would sound massively different, right?

You can tell the difference between a strat, tele and a Les Paul - well done. But if you're telling me it's because of the the scale length, then you are all truly retarded.
Jackson, Ibanez, Lag
Carvin, Marshall
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#33
This illustrates to me exactly why I barely post on this forum any more - it's packed full of kids who know nothing about what they're talking about.
Jackson, Ibanez, Lag
Carvin, Marshall
Ibanez, Boss, Korg
#34
Quote by Bidley
This illustrates to me exactly why I barely post on this forum any more - it's packed full of kids who know nothing about what they're talking about.


chill
Quote by kangaxxter
The only real answer to the SG vs Les Paul debate is to get a Flying V and laugh at all the suckers who don't have one.


Quote by Blompcube

if you embrace inaccurate intonation it can be quite arousing.


I <3 TWEED
#35
Quote by Bidley
No, the inherent changes between guitars of different scale lengths change the tone, not the scale length in itself. String tension also has little to do with it, and the string gauge thing is irrelevant because it's quite clearly the thickness in the strings that make the tonal differences.


Um, I hate to seem like I might be picking a side here, cuz this one is Hot, but string gauge and thickness are the same thing.

Gauge is the ancient unit of measure used when measuring round wire or sheet metal. It has different definitions depending on the type of metal, if its wire or sheet, and what country you are in!! Its really quite useless because of all the context needed to interpret the number. Also, its one of those stupid systems where a smaller number represents a larger object. Google will do many kinds of conversion, but wont convert inches to gauge!

Technically speaking, we should not use the word gauge when we are measuring in thousandths of an inch. Yup, if you didn't know, the 9 in "9's" means the high E string is 9/1000 of an inch thick. The closes gauge to .009 inches is 31 ( http://www.slotcar.com/drs/gachart.htm ) if you were wonder, which I am sure you were not. In fact, I can't believe you actually read to the end of this.
#36
Guitar wood 101.


Shitty wood = shitty tone

every other wood = good tone.


That's it as far as it goes to wood.
WARNING:
The above is most likely sarcasm, so fuck yourself if you're offended.
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#38
Quote by Ippon
Generalize much?



Yeah, but it gets the point across.


I lol'd at the pic.
WARNING:
The above is most likely sarcasm, so fuck yourself if you're offended.
Quote by shavorules42
Hey look! An intelligent post!
Quote by WCPhils
One time I saw a religious person eating so I don't do that anymore.
Quote by Joshua Garcia
Save water. Drink alcohol.
#39
Quote by Bidley
This illustrates to me exactly why I barely post on this forum any more - it's packed full of kids who know nothing about what they're talking about.


Please post less. It would stop your spew of misinformation.