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B
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Voters: 20.
#1
Another thread with no real purpose than to discuss a thought that's popped into my head. Enjoy!

Do you agree that:

A.) Something requires truth to be considered beautiful.

B.) Creativity requires the ability to see past the truth.

Assume for this discussion that creativity's meaning is to create something beautiful, whatever that means to you.

For the sake of avoiding the rut of "well, both", I'd like to ask you to argue for the statement that you agree with more. If you have a view that contradicts both, however, consider it welcome.

Should this thread go well, I'll bring another one next week where we can discuss subjective things, forge our bonds of debatery, and strain the tenuous peace that keeps us from all murdering each other.
I walk the line between fantasy and reality. One is more fun, the other is where the food is.
#3
A. Nope, most celebrity women are considered beautiful when they go through hell to look the way they do, they have to hide the way they really look. No truth in hiding yourself.
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#5
I'm too tired to justify it but i'm going with B.
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#6
C. I don't care.
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#7
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I think that this thread is dildos



I seem to remember you being versed in philosophy and logic, so may I ask why?

I've been semi-sleep deprived all of Thanksgiving break, so I figure I may have done goofed some part of the OP.
I walk the line between fantasy and reality. One is more fun, the other is where the food is.
#8
Those both sound like those quasiphilosophical statements that sound insightful but actually don't mean much of anything. But (B).
#9
Quote by Cap'n Braid
I seem to remember you being versed in philosophy and logic, so may I ask why?


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#10
I think your question is flawed fundamentally. Beauty is subjective, and when the basis of your question is something that's different for everyone you're asking, there's no control, or basis of comparison. You can't quantify it.

A conclusion can't be drawn, really, since it depends not only on what you view as beautiful, but to what degree.
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#11
Your statements are waaaay too basic. You could make the claim that creativity can be defined as presenting the truth in a new and never-seen-before light.

i.e. Tool
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#12
Quote by strat0blaster
I think your question is flawed fundamentally. Beauty is subjective, and when the basis of your question is something that's different for everyone you're asking, there's no control, or basis of comparison. You can't quantify it.

A conclusion can't be drawn, really, since it depends not only on what you view as beautiful, but to what degree.


Well, I see it more as a question of how each of us come to the opinion of what is beautiful.

For instance:

You go to a museum. There's a statue on the left that is a perfect sculpture of a human being. Down to every pore. To the right is a Dali style painting, using symbols and set in a semi-realistic setting. Which would you be more drawn to?

To me, while the statue on the left would be very interesting from a technical standpoint, the painting on the right would draw me in faster, because it isn't of this world, but only from the artist's. Its more of an actual work of creation.

Quote by Firenze
Your statements are waaaay too basic. You could make the claim that creativity can be defined as presenting the truth in a new and never-seen-before light.

i.e. Tool


If I don't see the truth, is it not the truth? Showing the truth in a new light is still comfortably in choice A. Now, if the truth was bent to show a new possibility of truth, I would consider it close to choice B.

I don't see A and B as all-encapsulating choices, just two directions that each contain several variations.
I walk the line between fantasy and reality. One is more fun, the other is where the food is.
Last edited by Cap'n Braid at Nov 27, 2011,
#13
Quote by Cap'n Braid
Another thread with no real purpose than to discuss a thought that's popped into my head. Enjoy!

Do you agree that:

A.) Something requires truth to be considered beautiful.

B.) Creativity requires the ability to see past the truth.

A) There isn't logic in beauty. We see something and we either are or aren't attracted to it. Period. End of story.

B) What does it mean to "see past the truth?"

C) Madcap makes better discussion threads

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


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#14
You read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse?

edit: lotta broad, sweeping claims being made in this thread.
Catch me,
heal me,
Lift me back up to the Sun
I choose to live
#15
Quote by Firenze
You read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse?

edit: lotta broad, sweeping claims being made in this thread.


OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#16
Quote by SteveHouse
A) There isn't logic in beauty. We see something and we either are or aren't attracted to it. Period. End of story.

B) What does it mean to "see past the truth?"

C) Madcap makes better discussion threads


A.) I wouldn't say I'm looking for the logic in beauty. Otherwise this would be a debate, and not a discussion.

B.) I could have worded that better, yes. I suppose the ability to recognize what is true, but also recognize what would be possible if the truth were different? That was the weakest part of the OP, yes, but I'm still at a loss on how to better describe it. Perhaps through more conversation I can flesh it out better.

C.) Well its a good thing I'm not competing with him then, eh? He does his thing, I do mine.

Quote by Firenze
You read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse?

edit: lotta broad, sweeping claims being made in this thread.


Yes, one of my favourite books by a large margin.
I walk the line between fantasy and reality. One is more fun, the other is where the food is.
#17
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Yes, one of my favourite books by a large margin.


I figured you would have. My copy is still with one of my old classmates. I need to get it back. >_>

if you can find the Signet classics copy of Notes from the Underground it includes one of his best short stories and excerpts from his short story collection, as well as Notes. You should definitely read that if you're into existentialist writing.

oh, and by his I mean Dostoevsky, not Hesse.
Catch me,
heal me,
Lift me back up to the Sun
I choose to live
#18
Quote by Cap'n Braid
A.) I wouldn't say I'm looking for the logic in beauty. Otherwise this would be a debate, and not a discussion.

B.) I could have worded that better, yes. I suppose the ability to recognize what is true, but also recognize what would be possible if the truth were different? That was the weakest part of the OP, yes, but I'm still at a loss on how to better describe it. Perhaps through more conversation I can flesh it out better.

C.) Well its a good thing I'm not competing with him then, eh? He does his thing, I do mine.

A) I don't get it. You ask if things require truth to be beautiful, which both 1. is a logical question and 2. involves truth, which is a logical idea.

B)

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

#19
Quote by SteveHouse
A) I don't get it. You ask if things require truth to be beautiful, which both 1. is a logical question and 2. involves truth, which is a logical idea.

B)


Don't have a good answer for this right now. I'll put it aside and think about it tomorrow.
I walk the line between fantasy and reality. One is more fun, the other is where the food is.
#22
A) I've never seen something beautiful that doesn't contain some sort of truth at some depth. Make sense? Even the most surreal literature, artwork, humor means something to some people - And since it means something to them, I'd say there is some truth in it for them, something to value. So, null question, I suppose?

B) Creativity can be based on something entirely truthful. At this point, even truth is a subjective concept. Someone can write something beautiful about the horrors of war, a very real thing to a lot of people. So I'd say creativity also requires the ability to see the truth - It's not a very easy thing to do.
#23
A) This is a valiant, enthusiastic effort to get some discussion going in a honest, trying thread.

B) Nevertheless, the TS is incompetent, and the thread will be propelled, if at all, by nothing more than bashing and ridicule over the overwhelming stupidity of the thread prompt.
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#24
Quote by Cap'n Braid
Another thread with no real purpose than to discuss a thought that's popped into my head. Enjoy!

Do you agree that:

A.) Something requires truth to be considered beautiful.

B.) Creativity requires the ability to see past the truth.

Assume for this discussion that creativity's meaning is to create something beautiful, whatever that means to you.

For the sake of avoiding the rut of "well, both", I'd like to ask you to argue for the statement that you agree with more. If you have a view that contradicts both, however, consider it welcome.

Should this thread go well, I'll bring another one next week where we can discuss subjective things, forge our bonds of debatery, and strain the tenuous peace that keeps us from all murdering each other.


A. It is true, in a way. What is Truth? Is a lie any different from the truth in its existence within the world? In the universe? Perhaps truth is just the disregard of ALL human endeavors?

Now let's think beauty. Beauty is the ability to think. Beauty is the artistic interpretation of some person that does not think. Because it is foreign and impossible for anyone, no matter how ignorant, another abstract term, to not think.

Look at your most un favorite mainstream shill. Is his or her likeness so devoid of truth? Doesn't he exist within our perception and help us place ourselves with or against him? Perhaps there is more truth in the false.

B. I don't understand that too well. Creating something helps you see past the truth? Into what? The false?

Look. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What that person beholds when they create is done for a reason. Perhaps the monetary gain from creating art about money signifies an artistic vision where they know they are putting up a visage, and they expect you to be able to realize that its a visage.Yet still work so you realize that in essence, you are no different from them and could follow the same path.

Maybe being untrue is no different from being true. Maybe he or she sees beauty in the improvement of the quality of their life, after seeing a truth he or she did not like.

I can't subscribe to either choice. We are here short. Both the art that brings some thing "new", and the process that duplicates a star, a new living thing, a piece of dirt the same way it always has, are sacred. Even this month's Top 40 hits past the surface. You can't create something outside of the truth, and you can't see past it.
.
#25
I'm an artist, so I tend to think in terms of paintings.

To me the answer is B.
Realism could be said to require truth, but in reality most realist painters often use artistic license to make a subject appear more beautiful than it really is.

Add 'surrealsm' to that and it becomes apparent that a "beautiful" painting need not be based upon the truth in any way shape or form, so in those cases we can say that creativity requires the ability to see past the truth... but in art, the truth can still be considered as beautiful.
#26
Quote by Carnivean
A) This is a valiant, enthusiastic effort to get some discussion going in a honest, trying thread.

B) Nevertheless, the TS is incompetent, and the thread will be propelled, if at all, by nothing more than bashing and ridicule over the overwhelming stupidity of the thread prompt.


That's all the pit is.
#27
I'd say a lot of art represents some kind of meaning - preferably a true one - by exaggerating or just making up things to intentionally evoke it or communicate it.

I guess that sort of fits into A, if you consider things as vague as evoking emotions to be truth. But then there's loads of completely abstract stuff, like absolute music or very very abstract art that doesn't necessarily even do that.

I'm not sure what B even means. What's behind the truth?

EDIT: There's got to be SOME logic in beauty, even if we're not aware of it. Although unfortunately all the explanations I've heard of it tend to be shit ones that don't explain much.
Last edited by whalepudding at Nov 27, 2011,
#28
It is my opinion that truth is beautiful, but not necessarily that truth is necessary in order for something to be beautiful. Think of an imagined landscape that the painter creates within his own mind and then brings to life on the canvas. That example illustrates my point that something can be entirely fictional, yet still beautiful. Such narrow qualifiers as the one in OP preclude one's ability to completely appreciate something as beautiful as a lie.

Lies can be exactly as beautiful as the truth. It's up to you to decide which one you'd rather have.

True creativity requires not the ability to see past the truth; rather, it stems from being able to break the rules. Bend the truth to your will. Create truth. That's creative. Learn the rules, and then break them. Don't let someone tell you you can't make something, be something, or do something. You absolutely can. What they've given you is a rule. All you have to do is break it. That's what genius is. It lies within the ability to create something from nothing, and to break the rules and come out into terra nova, a brand new world.

Still, one must not forget that in order to break the rules, one must absolutely know them as well as one's own heart, and hold them just as dear. When one has done such a thing, one can then begin to truly appreciate the nuances of each and every individual limitation, which in turn leads to one knowing exactly how to slip past them.

So, essentially, I disagree with both A and B.

I'm tired, so I apologise if this doesn't really make a lot of sense. I'll come back and clarify if necessary.
I think it's time for a change.



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Last edited by §ArmyofAngels§ at Nov 27, 2011,
#29
I don't understand the point of this thread. There should be a picture of a cat playing with the end of some string and the end point should be frayed. But really, the concept of the op just isn't interesting. There's no relation to make.
#30
Quote by Carnivean
A) This is a valiant, enthusiastic effort to get some discussion going in a honest, trying thread.

B) Nevertheless, the TS is incompetent, and the thread will be propelled, if at all, by nothing more than bashing and ridicule over the overwhelming stupidity of the thread prompt.

Quote by jakesmellspoo
ooh look at me i'm ERIKLENSHERR and i work at fancy pants desk jobs and wear ties and ply barely legal girls with weed and booze i'm such a classy motherfucker.
#31
I'm not sure what you mean by "truth". If you mean "things which exist" then sure, people think things that exist are beautiful. They also think things that don't exist are beautiful.

This threads is kinda.....dumb....but that's probably because don't understand what you mean.
#33
a) things become beautiful by association to other things you already find positive. (hence warhols "everything is beautiful") beauty is enjoyment, doesnt need to be truthful, whatever you mean by that.

b)what do yo mean see past truth? everyone experiences there own reality, art and creativity is creating dialogue between peoples experiences. creating a common language- i guess you could call that truth.
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