#4
if you don't know how these chords fit into context, how they're derived from keys, how they can be altered to fit in a key, how they can be borrowed from other keys, etc., then they're pretty much useless to you in this format.

you'd be better of learning the theory behind it. you'll have the prerequisite knowledge necessary to understand it and make effective use of it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#6
Quote by Sean0913
Why do people even acknowledge Major 11ths?

Do people even play the chords they give the formulae for?

LOL

Best,

Sean


I'm surprised to see you straight up discounting a musical technique / idea. Everything has its place and use, you know that - you shouldn't write something off so easily.
#7
Quote by Sean0913
Why do people even acknowledge Major 11ths?

Do people even play the chords they give the formulae for?

LOL

Best,

Sean


Nah brah, Its the CmM7 that people shouldn't play, yah no that brah.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#8
Quote by AeolianWolf
if you don't know how these chords fit into context, how they're derived from keys, how they can be altered to fit in a key, how they can be borrowed from other keys, etc., then they're pretty much useless to you in this format.

you'd be better of learning the theory behind it. you'll have the prerequisite knowledge necessary to understand it and make effective use of it.

Please listen to this.

If you take the time to learn the theory behind chord construction, you'll have that whole chart plus more residing in your brain. Far more useful.
#11
Quote by ibanez1511
i believe "always with you always with me" uses a major 11 chord.

as for a minormajor7th chord.
add a ninth and its the "james bond"end chord

In the intro riff, there is no maj 7th in the B chord. It's Badd4 - Emaj7/6 - Fsharpsus4
#12
Quote by stratdax
I'm surprised to see you straight up discounting a musical technique / idea. Everything has its place and use, you know that - you shouldn't write something off so easily.


I'm surprised you made that comment and purport to come across as understanding musical theory.

Good, you win. Show me one song with a Major 11.

Just one. There's got to be a "place and use", as you said, since you know your theory?

Do you even UNDERSTAND why I made that comment, and where the problem is with this chord?

School me.

Best,

Sean
#13
Quote by ibanez1511
i believe "always with you always with me" uses a major 11 chord.

as for a minormajor7th chord.
add a ninth and its the "james bond"end chord


I think I know why you are saying that, but, there are a couple of reasons why I'd disagree.

Number one is function. You hear a Major 3rd and 4th, but they are arpreggiated, much like the function of a sus does, not exactly, but tonally and functionally closer. In other words, its not *really* grabbing that m2 dissonance.

Secondly, in the cleverness of it's attack, its a broken muted arpeggio, which also lends more towards the idea of a sus, rather than a dissonant m2. In other words, it's not a brush strummed chord, and that is an important distinction.

Minor/Major 7ths arent uncommon at all, I believe that Desperado among other songs by the Eagles has one, and it sounds great. They are very common in Classical pieces and right out of the Harmonic Minor.

Best,

Sean
#14
Holy jeez, wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or what? What’s with the hostility?

Anyway, using the full voicing, the combination of root, 9th, 3rd, 11th, 5th ruins any qualities the chord could have. The minor 9th interval between the 3 and 11 clashes and isn’t very conducive to voice leading. But how often do guitarists use the full voicing of chords? Especially ones with 6 individual tones? So we drop tones – the 9 for sure, the 5, maybe the root depending on what the bass is doing. Still, it’s gotta have the 3 (and 7) and it obviously has to have the 11, so that interval is still an issue.

Look I’m not saying it’s a commonly used chord – by all means, it isn’t. But it’s better to see why it doesn’t work and what you could do to make it work. Certainly better than just “lol it’s dumb”. It also gives a frame of reference for comparison to the #11 or the dom11 chords. Or maybe the maj11 chord just has that one specific sound somebody is after, who knows.

All I said was that I found it weird you were just straight up discounting something, even if it’s only theoretical and not commonly used in music. What’s with the overreaction.

PS Signing off every single one of your posts makes you seem incredibly pretentious.

Best,
-stratdax
#15
Quote by :-D
Please listen to this.

If you take the time to learn the theory behind chord construction, you'll have that whole chart plus more residing in your brain. Far more useful.



True... don't forget you actually there's a lot of value in experimenting with only a few chords! Don't try to digest too much or you may be overwhelmed....


Other than that the list seems quite extensive
#16
Using a keyboard or simply a picture of one, you can count the steps given in a
formula. For example, the chord formula for the basic major triad is 5-4. If you begin,
say, with the C note as the root note, count up chromatically (half-steps or semi-tones)
five steps starting with that root note as the "1" count or step.
#17
All you need to know is:

1 - Major
2 - minor
3 - minor
4 - Major
5 - Major
6 - minor
7 - diminished

and, of course, the half-steps and whole-steps part:

2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 1

start on a major barre chord (any fret). Move up two half-steps and play a minor barre chord. two more half steps and another minor. One half step, and a major chord... etc

Those are all chords that fit together nicely because they're in what's callled a mAJOR scale!

nothing really more you need to know (AT THIS POINT RIGHT NOW)

questions?


I don't usually explain it this way, but since it's the internet i don't want to ramble on about it
Last edited by maltmn at Nov 30, 2011,
#18
I was just joking about the whole mM7 chord... I dont actually talk like that or post in that dialect either... which was kinda the give away that i was joking...
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#19
Quote by stratdax
Holy jeez, wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or what? What’s with the hostility?

Anyway, using the full voicing, the combination of root, 9th, 3rd, 11th, 5th ruins any qualities the chord could have. The minor 9th interval between the 3 and 11 clashes and isn’t very conducive to voice leading. But how often do guitarists use the full voicing of chords? Especially ones with 6 individual tones? So we drop tones – the 9 for sure, the 5, maybe the root depending on what the bass is doing. Still, it’s gotta have the 3 (and 7) and it obviously has to have the 11, so that interval is still an issue.

Look I’m not saying it’s a commonly used chord – by all means, it isn’t. But it’s better to see why it doesn’t work and what you could do to make it work. Certainly better than just “lol it’s dumb”. It also gives a frame of reference for comparison to the #11 or the dom11 chords. Or maybe the maj11 chord just has that one specific sound somebody is after, who knows.

All I said was that I found it weird you were just straight up discounting something, even if it’s only theoretical and not commonly used in music. What’s with the overreaction.

PS Signing off every single one of your posts makes you seem incredibly pretentious.

Best,
-stratdax


Hey Stratdax,

I've been signing this way since day one and going on 4 years. Judge me how you like. I'm not here but to help and correct where I see fit. No other agenda.

Second, a chord formula doesn't make a distinction on ideas such as omissions. I see that you do understand 11ths, but a guy looking at a chord formula doesn't know that a 13 chord is a major scale played simultaneously. Knowing formulas is one thing, and doesnt tell the whole story. Musicians that understand drop voicings, is the other side of the coin, which you pointed out.

Thats why i find formulae abstract, and incomplete. Most chord books Ive seen as well as the Theory poster in the classrooms at my Academy wither omit the Maj 11 and use the #11 instead, or they make a note that the dissonance created by a Major 11 is so great that it's not a practical chord.

That was my point, its not a wholesale discounting, its a point of practical teaching versus impractical information.

I don't disagree with your analysis, and I responded to your comments regrading my take on the Major 11th. At least we've established that you have an understanding of the chord and the "problems" created with a 4 and major 3rd m2 dissonance, but you seem to have taken my forthrightness a bit too personally. If I think you've said something ignorant, I'll call you on it. I've been doing it for years here, maybe you need to decide if its worth personally responding to me in the future or its better to live and let live. You're new here in posting to this forum, I'm not.

I'm not claiming to be the easiest guy in the world to like, but I do try and sincerely help others, and my main point is that abstract formula without legitimate wisdom and application in this instance, is folly.

Best,

Sean
#20
I'm with Sean about the impracticality of the Maj11 chord. Except I'd say the harsher dissonance is due to the tritone between the 7th and the 11th.

Depending on the voicing an add11 chord can sound quite nice, such as when the 11th is an anticipated note in a V-I cadence (Corelli cadences ftw).
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Dec 1, 2011,
#21
Quote by griffRG7321
I'm with Sean about the impracticality of the Maj11 chord. Except I'd say the harsher dissonance is due to the tritone between the 7th and the 11th.

Depending on the voicing an add11 chord can sound quite nice, such as when the 11th is an anticipated note in a V-I cadence (Corelli cadences ftw).


Yeah I didn't even want to get into the tritone element on this, but you're absolutely right.

I think that an experienced ear can use so called dissonances, intelligently. I remember Jimmy Bruno getting upset about people saying that you cant play the F against C, and proceeded to rip lines all over, showing that there are no hard or fast "rules" but in general, you have to kind of know what your doing, and that's why people will say that F over a C major is an "avoid" note etc.

Good points Griff!

Best,

Sean