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#1
I made a band recently, and we're having fun and all but we didn't start writing any serious material.

I always loved hair metal/rock, those melodic choruses and solos and all, problem is, though, that I've gotten so used to writing complicated progressive parts with alternating time signatures and everything, that it's not really natural for me to write an easy to play repetative rhythm.

I do not mean it is musically demanding for me to write something like this, just that I don't feel easy keeping it simple.


Any tips?
#4
Genius is being able to show creative brilliance as simply as possible.

Feeling a need to overcomplicate a piece can be a sign of a lack of confidence that the simpler idea is good enough to stand on it's own.

Why don't you feel easy keeping it simple?
Si
#5
Quote by 20Tigers
Why don't you feel easy keeping it simple?


Or building on that, why do you enjoy listening to simple songs but not playing or writing them? It just sounds like musical elitism to me, or a lack of confidence (I have to make this more complex or I'll be criticised for not being complex enough!). Of course I've never heard music being criticised for not being "complex enough".
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#6
Quote by AlanHB
Or building on that, why do you enjoy listening to simple songs but not playing or writing them? It just sounds like musical elitism to me, or a lack of confidence (I have to make this more complex or I'll be criticised for not being complex enough!). Of course I've never heard music being criticised for not being "complex enough".



I feel okay playing simple stuff, I just don't feel at ease writing them. Why?

Because I have high ambitions regarding music and want to progress, therefore I keep writing more and more complicated music. But this I want to keep for the pure fun of it, somehow.
#7
I think as long as you realize the problem your having, which you already addressed then you should be able to correct it with focus. It will probably just take some time for your mind and hands to think a little different, but as long as you have the sound in your head you should be able to achieve it.
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#9
Quote by Zeletros
I feel okay playing simple stuff, I just don't feel at ease writing them. Why?

Because I have high ambitions regarding music and want to progress, therefore I keep writing more and more complicated music. But this I want to keep for the pure fun of it, somehow.


Well it depends what you mean by simple, one of my fav hair metal bands Extreme have some pretty complex songs, both technically and structurally.

Eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88CHZ0KBCdU&feature=related

But otherwise I think you really don't have that much experience playing full songs, at least with a band. Anybody who has played live or who has just plain "gotten into a song" can attest that a song can be a whole heap of fun to play even if it's incredibly simple. The technical angle of it doesn't factor in.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#10
protest the hero can get pretty hair metal-y and they don't compromise their songwriting

and i've heard some of your 'progressive' tabs, and they're really not as high-caliber as you probably think. i think you'd get a lot of value from going back to the beginning and building off of it. learning full songs is a good way to go.

also, as always, listen to music in the style you're going for and analyze the hell out of it. steel panther and mr big are great modern examples that obviously know what they're doing. the darkness is pretty fantastic as well.
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#11
Quote by 20Tigers
Genius is being able to show creative brilliance as simply as possible.

Feeling a need to overcomplicate a piece can be a sign of a lack of confidence that the simpler idea is good enough to stand on it's own.

Why don't you feel easy keeping it simple?



I like this idea, but it depends in which way.

how do you feel about harmonically complex like jazz?

..or complexity in layering, like an orchestra?

Most melodic motifs can be viewed as simple, and are not good enough to stand on their own, but it's the way it's distributed between the different instruments that make it interesting.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 28, 2011,
#12
^ Hey darren, it doesn't mean genius ideas are always simple; only that one has the ability to communicate an idea as simply as possible. There are many songs and ideas that are incredibly complex and pure genius.

Then again maybe I'm just talking shit
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 28, 2011,
#13
Quote by 20Tigers
^ Hey darren, it doesn't mean genius ideas are always simple; only that one has the ability to communicate an idea as simply as possible. There are many songs and ideas that are incredibly complex and pure genius.


Ah yes I had a feeling you already meant that, just wanted to to know for sure


Personally I feel that people tend to focus too much on harmony alone.

I see compositions on here by people that are nicely written, and harmonically complex, but it lacks inspiration and natural flow for me.

It's a shame cause I see so much potential, but I miss personality in these pieces. We are all human, and I think it's safe to say that most of us rather hear something less complex with more personal traits. It would bring more acclaim to these people I think.

Or maybe I talk shit as well?

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Nov 28, 2011,
#14
Quote by AlanHB
Well it depends what you mean by simple, one of my fav hair metal bands Extreme have some pretty complex songs, both technically and structurally.

Eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88CHZ0KBCdU&feature=related

But otherwise I think you really don't have that much experience playing full songs, at least with a band. Anybody who has played live or who has just plain "gotten into a song" can attest that a song can be a whole heap of fun to play even if it's incredibly simple. The technical angle of it doesn't factor in.



I know. I played live a lot of the times, even if I don't like the genre, playing the song in a band is still fun.

But I didn't say I don't feel okay playing simple, I said it's not natural for me to WRITE simple.


I meant a more guitar-rock/metal-vibe in your face music,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqsTHZpUqro&feature=player_embedded


Quote by Hail
protest the hero can get pretty hair metal-y and they don't compromise their songwriting

and i've heard some of your 'progressive' tabs, and they're really not as high-caliber as you probably think. i think you'd get a lot of value from going back to the beginning and building off of it. learning full songs is a good way to go.

also, as always, listen to music in the style you're going for and analyze the hell out of it. steel panther and mr big are great modern examples that obviously know what they're doing. the darkness is pretty fantastic as well.


I didn't upload anything I consider 'serious band material' in... actually I never uploaded any.

My current piece I'm working on is already 14 minutes long and contains numerous tempo and time signatures and several key changes
Last edited by Zeletros at Nov 28, 2011,
#16
Quote by Zeletros
problem is, though, that I've gotten so used to writing complicated progressive parts with alternating time signatures and everything, that it's not really natural for me to write an easy to play repetative rhythm.


seriously?

Did you ever consider trying to learn to play the type of music you intend to imitate? Like maybe through the act of playing simple stuff, you might one day be able to do it naturally.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 28, 2011,
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky
seriously?

Did you ever consider trying to learn to play the type of music you intend to imitate? Like maybe through the act of playing simple stuff, you might one day be able to do it naturally.



Never actually. Except for this 80s stuff, I always try to be original.
#19
Quote by Zeletros
Never actually. Except for this 80s stuff, I always try to be original.



Maybe that's why you're having so much trouble.
shred is gaudy music
#20
Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting the impression that your motivation to write more complex music is so that you can say you write complex music, which in turn gives you an excuse to look down upon "simple" music.

If you actually find 80's style stuff enjoyable, then there shouldn't really be any problem trying to write it. It's more of a "go do it" sort of issue, and once you try it a few times you'll start to develop more of a knack for it, as with anything. I'm a huge Dream Theater fan myself and love playing intricate parts, but I don't really have a problem with simpler stuff because I've done it before.
#21
Quote by :-D
Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting the impression that your motivation to write more complex music is so that you can say you write complex music, which in turn gives you an excuse to look down upon "simple" music.

If you actually find 80's style stuff enjoyable, then there shouldn't really be any problem trying to write it. It's more of a "go do it" sort of issue, and once you try it a few times you'll start to develop more of a knack for it, as with anything. I'm a huge Dream Theater fan myself and love playing intricate parts, but I don't really have a problem with simpler stuff because I've done it before.



I write complex music so that I can write more and more complex music, I don't look down upon other musicians for keeping it simple, in fact, I'm actually quite jealous that they can keep it that simple and be totally happy with it.

But I can't, I will try to write 80s and simple on the side, but I will always keep trying to write something more complex and complex.
#22
I'm just trying to get to the heart of the "so I can write more and more complex music" - in my personal experience, it's been people I've dealt with who tried stuff like that simply so they'd have something to shove in everyone else's face.

Not saying that's the case for you, just that that's the reason I brought it up initially. But just keep trying to write some stuff, and it will get easier, trust me.
#23
Quote by :-D
I'm just trying to get to the heart of the "so I can write more and more complex music" - in my personal experience, it's been people I've dealt with who tried stuff like that simply so they'd have something to shove in everyone else's face.

Not saying that's the case for you, just that that's the reason I brought it up initially. But just keep trying to write some stuff, and it will get easier, trust me.



No no, I really don't care about other people, in a good sense.

I'm just a perfectionist who wants to master everything he's interested in.
#24
Quote by Zeletros
I write complex music so that I can write more and more complex music, I don't look down upon other musicians for keeping it simple, in fact, I'm actually quite jealous that they can keep it that simple and be totally happy with it.

But I can't, I will try to write 80s and simple on the side, but I will always keep trying to write something more complex and complex.



I think you have to face the fact that you're just too damn awesome to play simple stuff. Why fight it?
shred is gaudy music
#25
Quote by GuitarMunky
I think you have to face the fact that you're just too damn awesome to play simple stuff. Why fight it?



I'll to put it as less ego-maniac-ly as possible,

People around my area tend to be much more relaxed in terms of their goals, so the bands I'm playing in, would not like to and would not be able to play the parts I write.
I'm not saying the guitar parts in my songs are extremely complex. Drums tend to be though, and I make some crazy fingerings for bass too.
#26
Quote by Zeletros
No no, I really don't care about other people, in a good sense.

I'm just a perfectionist who wants to master everything he's interested in.

I'm much the same way in my approach, so the best advice I can give you is to just do it. I used to spend way too much time having trouble getting into things simply because they weren't good enough for me, when the only reason they weren't good enough was that I simply hadn't tried.

Good luck with it.
#27
Quote by Zeletros
I'll to put it as less ego-maniac-ly as possible,

People around my area tend to be much more relaxed in terms of their goals, so the bands I'm playing in, would not like to and would not be able to play the parts I write.
I'm not saying the guitar parts in my songs are extremely complex. Drums tend to be though, and I make some crazy fingerings for bass too.



That was less ego-maniac-ly ?




The only thing I can suggest to you.

1) invest in a DAW and record and play all the parts yourself

2) give up on the idea of playing simple music.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 28, 2011,
#28
Quote by GuitarMunky
That was less ego-maniac-ly ?




The only thing I can suggest to you.

1) invest in a DAW and record and play all the parts yourself

2) give up on the idea of playing simple music.



1) I will record and play all the parts myself, I only dreamed of finding a band that could play that >_>

2) I never said I have trouble playing simple, only writing


And how was that egoistical?

I only came across 1 band who played something technical.
Last edited by Zeletros at Nov 28, 2011,
#29
I don't think there's anything more to say. TS thinks complex music is better. He allows other plebs to write simple stuff, whilst TS will only write the complex stuff.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#30
Quote by AlanHB
I don't think there's anything more to say. TS thinks complex music is better. He allows other plebs to write simple stuff, whilst TS will only write the complex stuff.



Why do you do this? Yes, complex music is superior to simple music in terms of complexity, never did I say that it's better.

Wanting to master your craft is impossible without everyone thinking you're an ego-maniac?
#31
Keep on rocking, and you will get used to it.

Add it as another style of your second nature.

\m/
#32
Quote by Zeletros
Why do you do this? Yes, complex music is superior to simple music in terms of complexity, never did I say that it's better.

Wanting to master your craft is impossible without everyone thinking you're an ego-maniac?


There's no solution in your case with the exception of "get over it". You ask "why do I find it ok for others to write simple music but don't feel comfortable writing it myself?". You've given your answer "because complex music is better". It's simple logic.

Are you hoping for a different answer? Take it as you must.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#33
Quote by AlanHB
There's no solution in your case with the exception of "get over it". You ask "why do I find it ok for others to write simple music but don't feel comfortable writing it myself?". You've given your answer "because complex music is better". It's simple logic.

Are you hoping for a different answer? Take it as you must.



Where did I ever say that complex music is better?


Quote by Chayakorn
Keep on rocking, and you will get used to it.

Add it as another style of your second nature.

\m/



\m/
#34
Dude you're making a critical error in your logic.

You are saying that you want to "master your craft" and that is why you push yourself to write more and more complex material.

Yet to be a master songwriter is not necessarily about writing with complexity. In some ways it can be far more challenging to write a simple piece that is creative, original, and maintains the listeners interest because you don't have the same level of complexity to rely on. The song has to stand on it's own when it's stripped down to it's core.

From what you are saying you can already write complex material but have trouble writing simple stuff. Thus if you really want to master your craft you should spend some time keeping things simple. (Less is More; Keep It Simple Stupid; etc)

I believe if you knuckle down and spend the time necessary to master the art of writing simple songs with great hooks that your more complex work will improve faster than if you spend time just trying to write more and more complex music.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 28, 2011,
#35
Quote by Zeletros
Where did I ever say that complex music is better?


Well you don't want to write simple music, so it's inferred.

Now I'm serious, what answer are you looking for?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#36
Quote by 20Tigers
Dude you're making a critical error in your logic.

You are saying that you want to "master your craft" and that is why you push yourself to write more and more complex material.

Yet to be a master songwriter is not necessarily about writing with complexity. In some ways it can be far more challenging to write a simple piece that is creative, original, and maintains the listeners interest because you don't have the same level of complexity to rely on. The song has to stand on it's own when it's stripped down to it's core.

From what you are saying you can already write complex material but have trouble writing simple stuff. Thus if you really want to master your craft you should spend some time keeping things simple. (Less is More; Keep It Simple Stupid; etc)

I believe if you knuckle down and spend the time necessary to master the art of writing simple songs with great hooks that your more complex work will improve faster than if you spend time just trying to write more and more complex music.



I CAN write simple stuff, I just don't feel "comfy" when keeping them simple.


Quote by AlanHB
Well you don't want to write simple music, so it's inferred.

Now I'm serious, what answer are you looking for?



If I knew what kind of answer I wanted I wouldn't be asking in the first place
#37
Quote by Zeletros
If I knew what kind of answer I wanted I wouldn't be asking in the first place


Is "get over it" an option?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#39
Quote by Zeletros
Any answer is an option


Ok, get over it then. Write simple music. Don't care that it's simple.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#40
I heard the guitarist from Racer-X plays simple music in his other band, Mr Big.

You can too..
My Gear:
Epiphone LP Black Beauty (2007)| Washburn WM24K (2008)| Ibanez Iceman IC300 (2003)| Ibanez GRX40 (2004) w Gold Lace Sensors| Roland Microcube| Marshall G10MK.II Amp| Zoom G2.1u| BOSS Metal Zone

Yes, I am a simple guy.
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