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#1
I know my modes, Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian.

But if I'm writing out my modes for the C Major Scale it'd be;
C Ionian (Major Scale)
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian (Relative Minor)
B Locrian

And each "new" scale derived from C Major would be in a different key correct.
Example: D Dorian is in D Major. G Mixolydian is in G Major, etc.

I would write my chord progression following that key and its respected sharps or flats.
Example: a I-ii-V-I progression in D Major would be D-e-A-D with the keys sharps in their respected positions of the triads. (F and C sharp in D Major[D-F#-A; A-C#-E])

With my progression written out I could now use D Dorian over that progression correct? (Yes I know some modes perfer/work better with Dominant chords, etc.)

Then another question. If we use the B Major Scale (B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#) and i wanted to take the A# and write in A# Locrian, what key would I be? I don't think A# Locrian exists but I'm not 100% sure...

The reason I ask this is because I honestly forget a lot about modes and would like to retain this knowledge but need a little refreshing in gaps where my memory forgets or isn't right. And that's pretty much the reason I made this thread instead of the Sticky/Search because I need some one to go over my theory and make sure it connects.

And I'm going to ask the Musician's Talk veterans to answer this and review it. No offence but I really perfer a noobie doesn't try to answer this and with me not being sure dedicate their wrong information to memory and I have to relearn my modes again at a later time.
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#2
D Dorian shares the same key signature as C Major; G Mixolydian shares the same key signature as C Major. The modes of the C Major scale all share the same key signature as C Major.

In your I ii V I in D Major you would play in D Major, should you be aiming for an "inside" consonant sound. You could play over it in D Dorian if you wanted but it would not have the same key signature as D Major - you would be more-or-less using C Major to solo over D Major. The results may be somewhat alarming.

A# Locrian shares the same key signature as B Major.
Last edited by Vlasco at Dec 6, 2011,
#3
Quote by Xter

And each "new" scale derived from C Major would be in a different key correct.
Example: D Dorian is in D Major. G Mixolydian is in G Major, etc.

it was doing pretty ok up until here. D Dorian is not in D major!
when you think of modes, try not to think of them as all related to one key. Yes, it's true that in C major you can play the D Dorian shape and it will sound like C major, and the E Phyrgian, but D Dorian is a key in its own right.
Dorian is Ionian with a flattened 3rd and 7th, so D Dorian can either be worked out by comparing it to C Ionian (same notes but starting on D), or by taking a D major scale and flattening the 3rd and the 7th (the F# and C#, respectively).
D Dorian means that you are using the notes from C major, yes, but the tonal centre, the note that everything wants to resolve to, is D instead of C.
Yes, B major has the same notes as A# Locrian, but there is a difference between B Ionian and A# Locrian.
Modes aren't just different inversions of scales - a mode is like a major key, as in it can start on any note. You can have D Dorian, Eb Dorian, E Dorian, F Dorian, etc. as you can with every single mode.
If I haven't made anything clear just say and I'm more than happy to try to explain
#4
Quote by theknuckster
it was doing pretty ok up until here. D Dorian is not in D major!
when you think of modes, try not to think of them as all related to one key. Yes, it's true that in C major you can play the D Dorian shape and it will sound like C major, and the E Phyrgian, but D Dorian is a key in its own right.
Dorian is Ionian with a flattened 3rd and 7th, so D Dorian can either be worked out by comparing it to C Ionian (same notes but starting on D), or by taking a D major scale and flattening the 3rd and the 7th (the F# and C#, respectively).
D Dorian means that you are using the notes from C major, yes, but the tonal centre, the note that everything wants to resolve to, is D instead of C.
Yes, B major has the same notes as A# Locrian, but there is a difference between B Ionian and A# Locrian.
Modes aren't just different inversions of scales - a mode is like a major key, as in it can start on any note. You can have D Dorian, Eb Dorian, E Dorian, F Dorian, etc. as you can with every single mode.
If I haven't made anything clear just say and I'm more than happy to try to explain


Okay I see, No matter what if I take the modes of any major scale, It's still in that major scales keys. So then If I wanted to write a Chord Progression in D Dorian, I would write the triads for C Major but shift them so the tonic, mediant, etc. would be focused to resolve on D. So in D Dorian, D is my I and A is my V. Since I'm still in C Major, I would use that key's sharps or flats but in this case none. In that case wouldn't my I and V now be minor since F# and C# are not present making them minor triads. In this scenario I would be following a Minor roman numeral system ( i, ii*[Diminished], III, iv, v, VI VII) instead of a Major (I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii*).
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#5
Yeah, that sounds more like it to me, but I'd just try to get out of the habit of thinking of D Dorian as relying on C major. It's a handy way to figure out the modes, but it can lead to a lot of confusion, especially as guitarists often throw around phrases like 'this is in E Phyrgian' when it's really not, it's in A Aeolian and they're just playing an E Phyrgian shape.
Also, just to mention that, A Aeolian is the same as A Natural Minor (the relative minor of C major), but when you talk about the relative minor key you're normally talking about either harmonic or melodic minor. Thanks to 'Classical' music a minor key is almost never the natural minor, but instead either harmonic (#7 compared to natural minor) or melodic (#6 and #7 from natural minor, but the same as the natural minor when descending)
#6
The seven are the same in every key. The concept of a 'major scale' is synonymous with the Ionian Mode. When you start on a note of the key other than the 'tonic' (the note the key is named after) then you are in a different mode.

Every key has the same seven modes. They are always in the same sequence. Think of them numerically;

I = Ionian
ii = Dorian
iii = Phrygian
IV = Lydian
V = Mixolydian
vi = Aeolian
vii = Locrian

(upper case Roman numerals indicate Major modes [modes with major 3rds] - lower case = minor modes [modes with minor 3rds] )

So whatever key you're in will follow that sequence of modes. For instance, in the key of D major, D is the basis of the Ionian mode, E = Dorian, F# = Phrygian, G = Lydian, A = Mixolydian, B = Aeolian, C# = Locrian.
Last edited by guitarpixel at Dec 6, 2011,
#7
Quote by theknuckster
Yeah, that sounds more like it to me, but I'd just try to get out of the habit of thinking of D Dorian as relying on C major. It's a handy way to figure out the modes, but it can lead to a lot of confusion, especially as guitarists often throw around phrases like 'this is in E Phyrgian' when it's really not, it's in A Aeolian and they're just playing an E Phyrgian shape.
Also, just to mention that, A Aeolian is the same as A Natural Minor (the relative minor of C major), but when you talk about the relative minor key you're normally talking about either harmonic or melodic minor. Thanks to 'Classical' music a minor key is almost never the natural minor, but instead either harmonic (#7 compared to natural minor) or melodic (#6 and #7 from natural minor, but the same as the natural minor when descending)


Okay! This makes perfect sense now! Thank you! and i was always taught that for example, C Major is relative to A Natural Minor, and that Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor are the same but with raised Scale degrees (Except descending Melodic Minor as you said, but ascending is altered).

Quote by guitarpixel
The seven are the same in every key. The concept of a 'major scale' is synonymous with the Ionian Mode. When you start on a note of the key other than the 'tonic' (the note the key is named after) then you are in a different mode.

Every key has the same seven modes. They are always in the same sequence. Think of them numerically;

I = Ionian
II = Dorian
III = Phrygian
IV = Lydian
V = Mixolydian
VI = Aeolian
VII = Locrian

So whatever key you're in will follow that sequence of modes. For instance, in the key of D major, D is the basis of the Ionian mode, E = Dorian, F# = Phrygian, G = Lydian, A = Mixolydian, B = Aeolian, C# = Locrian.


Yes I demonstrated basic knowledge of this already. I don't want to sound crude but please answer with regard to my questions then posting something I had already demonstrated knowledge of. But you did acknowledge one thing as I highlighted you mentioned that answered a question, besides this everything else is information already established.

By the way, I wouldn't use Scale Degrees because of Major and Minor Roman Numeral system is different. I would use numbers (1. , 2. , 3. , etc.) because a noobie looking at this thread or some one might get confused because that states all Major degrees.
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Last edited by Xter at Dec 6, 2011,
#8
Quote by Xter


Yes I demonstrated basic knowledge of this already. I don't want to sound crude but please answer with regard to my questions then posting something I had already demonstrated knowledge of. But you did acknowledge one thing as I highlighted you mentioned that answered a question, besides this everything else is information already established.

By the way, I wouldn't use Scale Degrees because of Major and Minor Roman Numeral system is different. I would use numbers (1. , 2. , 3. , etc.) because a noobie looking at this thread or some one might get confused because that states all Major degrees.


Sorry if you thought my response wasn't to the point. In your original question you expressed confusion about the relationship of modes to keys, by suggesting that D dorian was 'in the key of D' --- so I was hoping to clear that up for you - so i thought I was answering your question.

As for the issue of Roman numerals. It's quite standard to use Roman numerals. Modes are based on Scale Degrees - I suppose I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi -vii would be a bit more precise. Sorry. I've edited my previous post to correct this.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't use 1,2, 3, etc because it doesn't reinforce the essential connection between the scale degrees and the modes themselves. I believe your initial confusion stems from - it seems - that you weren't actually connecting the concept of modes with scale degrees. If you're 'not sure that A# Locrian exists" then you clearly don't understand how modes actually work.

theknuckster has answered your question, but I thought the issue of scale degrees was actually particularly relevant to your problem. Scale degrees are tied to modes as well as the chord structure that arises from them.

Have fun.
Last edited by guitarpixel at Dec 6, 2011,
#10
Quote by Xter

And I'm going to ask the Musician's Talk veterans to answer this and review it. No offence but I really perfer a noobie doesn't try to answer this and with me not being sure dedicate their wrong information to memory and I have to relearn my modes again at a later time.


Only a noob is going to give you the answer you want i.e., that you're understanding of modes is right. Fact of the matter is, you're way off base with all this. I can't even explain modes because they're so irrelevant I've never bothered to actually look into all this nonsense that guitar players like to talk about.

It all boils down to the following, modes aren't jack shit. They're nothing the way guitarists think about them. They're just the major scale starting on a different pitch or with a couple of accidentals and that doesn't change anything. If you're in B major and decide you want to start playing in A# locrian be my guest, but at the end of the day you'll still be in B major.
#11
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Only a noob is going to give you the answer you want i.e., that you're understanding of modes is right. Fact of the matter is, you're way off base with all this. I can't even explain modes because they're so irrelevant I've never bothered to actually look into all this nonsense that guitar players like to talk about.

It all boils down to the following, modes aren't jack shit. They're nothing the way guitarists think about them. They're just the major scale starting on a different pitch or with a couple of accidentals and that doesn't change anything. If you're in B major and decide you want to start playing in A# locrian be my guest, but at the end of the day you'll still be in B major.

I love this.

TS, just play Gsus. It'll solve everyone's problems.
#12
If only JazzRock would stop thinking of the major and minor scales in a tonal context as intrinsically normative, he'd be able to aknowledge the relevance of modes.

This goes out to JazzRock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3FN2DBqroA

From: http://solomonsmusic.net/tonality.htm

"Major and minor modes are regarded today as the most important modes, since most music around the world now conforms to these two modes. Minimally, key consists of tonic plus the mode, e.g., "C major" or "E Mixolydian".

Music which conforms to modes other than major and minor is called modal, hence modality. Arguably, music in major and minor keys is also modal, but due to the need to separate these categories, it is best to reserve the term "modality" for music that uses other modes. Modal music is "keyed", because it has a tonic and a mode, hence A-Lydian is a key."

From: http://www.standingstones.com/modeharm.html

"In the Baroque period of music, all modes except the Ionian and Aeolian were discarded. These were then renamed the major and minor scale."

"The use of the modal system is particularly convenient in the matter of key signatures. For example, when writing an A minor tune in a key signature of no sharps or flats, if it is noticed that every occurence of an F has been sharped, it should be concluded that the tune is in the mode of A Dorian rather than A Aeolian. This can be reflected by placing an F# in the key signature; the avoidance of unnecessary accidentals is a convenience both to the transcriber and to the performer."

From: http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/

"Medieval European music, like many Non-Western traditions, was modal. This means that a piece of music was not in a particular key based on a major or minor scale. Instead, it was in a particular mode. A mode may look very much like a scale, since it lists the notes that are "allowed" in the piece of music and defines the tonic of the music. But a mode is usually also a collection of melodies, melodic phrases, or patterns that are found in that mode and not others (since the various modes are more different from each other than the various scales)."

Cheers.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Dec 6, 2011,
#13
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Only a noob is going to give you the answer you want i.e., that you're understanding of modes is right. Fact of the matter is, you're way off base with all this. I can't even explain modes because they're so irrelevant I've never bothered to actually look into all this nonsense that guitar players like to talk about.

It all boils down to the following, modes aren't jack shit. They're nothing the way guitarists think about them. They're just the major scale starting on a different pitch or with a couple of accidentals and that doesn't change anything. If you're in B major and decide you want to start playing in A# locrian be my guest, but at the end of the day you'll still be in B major.


indeed
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

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#15
The church modes don't function the same way that minor/major tonality does.
#16
*sigh*

Quote by Brainpolice2
If only JazzRock would stop thinking of the major and minor scales in a tonal context as intrinsically normative, he'd be able to acknowledge the relevance of modes.

What...? Intrinsically normative? All insane uses of big words aside, "major and minor modes in a tonal context" is pretty much normative practice, but I guess only insofar as everyone does it. Is that what normative means, I'm not sure (I actually am, and yes it does)?

This goes out to JazzRock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3FN2DBqroA

From: http://solomonsmusic.net/tonality.htm

"Major and minor modes are regarded today as the most important modes, since most music around the world now conforms to these two modes. Minimally, key consists of tonic plus the mode, e.g., "C major" or "E Mixolydian".

This disctinction of mode vs. scale vs. key is pretty much nonsense. "A mode is a series of intervals used to construct a scale." Great, unfortunately a scale is just a series a of intervals... So therefore a mode is a series of intervals used to construct a series of intervals Also the term key is almost never applied to modes, so to say the key of E mixolydian isn't correct. I'm not sure what the point of quoting this was, but if it's to prove my point that major and minor keys are relevant and modes aren't then I'll take it.

Music which conforms to modes other than major and minor is called modal, hence modality. Arguably, music in major and minor keys is also modal, but due to the need to separate these categories, it is best to reserve the term "modality" for music that uses other modes. Modal music is "keyed", because it has a tonic and a mode, hence A-Lydian is a key."

Music in major and minor keys are unarguably not modal because of the ubiquitous application (I can use big words to) of functional harmony which doesn't exist in a modal world. This stuff about the A lydian being a key is wrong, there's no other way to put it. But yeah, music that conforms to other modes is modal, that much is true. However that's not my point. My point is that music that conforms to other modes isn't really all that prevalent anymore.

From: http://www.standingstones.com/modeharm.html

"In the Baroque period of music, all modes except the Ionian and Aeolian were discarded. These were then renamed the major and minor scale."

Nonsense. There are loads of examples of modal music in the baroque era even from the late baroque from Bach and Telemann. If you get bad edits of certain scores you can actually find really vicious cross relations because the editors put it in a key without realizing the modality. But you're right, the shift to Ionian and Aeolian was happening at this point in time, however the real significant shift was in the 1690s when Corelli decided to begin normalizing (yeah that's right) the use of something we now call tonality (i.e. functional harmony).

"The use of the modal system is particularly convenient in the matter of key signatures. For example, when writing an A minor tune in a key signature of no sharps or flats, if it is noticed that every occurence of an F has been sharped, it should be concluded that the tune is in the mode of A Dorian rather than A Aeolian. This can be reflected by placing an F# in the key signature; the avoidance of unnecessary accidentals is a convenience both to the transcriber and to the performer."

Okay sounds like a plan. Just be careful about cross relations!


From: http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/

"Medieval European music, like many Non-Western traditions, was modal. This means that a piece of music was not in a particular key based on a major or minor scale. Instead, it was in a particular mode. A mode may look very much like a scale, since it lists the notes that are "allowed" in the piece of music and defines the tonic of the music. But a mode is usually also a collection of melodies, melodic phrases, or patterns that are found in that mode and not others (since the various modes are more different from each other than the various scales)."

From wikipedia
The Middle Ages (adjectival form: medieval, mediaeval or mediæval) is a periodization of European history from the 5th century to the 15th century.

From my system tray:
Today's date: 06-10-2011.


Cheers.


This is all pretty much off topic. But cheers.

EDIT: Upon reflection I'd like to add the following: please don't make a long response to all this stuff, because frankly I just can't muster up the energy to keep reiterating the same crap over and over again. I've talked about this stuff so many times and I'm not sure why I keep wandering into these threads. Probably to pick fights I guess But yeah, don't waste your time responding to this expecting another response from me. If you want to try and refute this stuff for the sake of another friggin' modes thread, go for it. Peace my brother.
Last edited by jazz_rock_feel at Dec 6, 2011,
#17
Yeah... I'm just going to ask this thread is locked... My question was answered long ago and I got an answer to my question lol. This reminds me why modes are dreaded in Musician's Talk, so much debate over them. I only had one part mixed up but i'm pretty cleared up now and good.

Cheers Everyone!
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#19
Your theory is wrong. Refer to sig for why.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#20
Quote by Xter
I know my modes, Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian.

But if I'm writing out my modes for the C Major Scale it'd be;
C Ionian (Major Scale)
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian (Relative Minor)
B Locrian

And each "new" scale derived from C Major would be in a different key correct.
Example: D Dorian is in D Major. G Mixolydian is in G Major, etc.

I would write my chord progression following that key and its respected sharps or flats.
Example: a I-ii-V-I progression in D Major would be D-e-A-D with the keys sharps in their respected positions of the triads. (F and C sharp in D Major[D-F#-A; A-C#-E])

With my progression written out I could now use D Dorian over that progression correct? (Yes I know some modes perfer/work better with Dominant chords, etc.)

Then another question. If we use the B Major Scale (B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#) and i wanted to take the A# and write in A# Locrian, what key would I be? I don't think A# Locrian exists but I'm not 100% sure...

The reason I ask this is because I honestly forget a lot about modes and would like to retain this knowledge but need a little refreshing in gaps where my memory forgets or isn't right. And that's pretty much the reason I made this thread instead of the Sticky/Search because I need some one to go over my theory and make sure it connects.

And I'm going to ask the Musician's Talk veterans to answer this and review it. No offence but I really perfer a noobie doesn't try to answer this and with me not being sure dedicate their wrong information to memory and I have to relearn my modes again at a later time.


I can see you're trying to cover all the basis for understanding modes, and I commend you for it, and so I'll address only the areas that you have wrong, as there are quite a few.

The point that I want to arrive at, is its a lot more tricky to apply ideas in a modal way if you dont understand what tonality is, beyond that of a diatonic key.

The name you give it does not equal its function, unless you know what youre doing.

Read that part again. If you get THAT, you're most of the way there.

1. Each new scale, derived from that C Major scale is NOT necessarily a new or different key. If your underlying progression is not modal, it's not modal.

2. Key is based upon where the progression feels centered on. Playing D Dorian, and some reason it doesnt feel right or final on D? That's because in all probability you're not modal, and its sounding great when it ends on C. Tonality is C, it ends on C. End it on D and it sounds unfinished.

3. Dorian is problematic with associating it with a Major key because it has a Minor 3rd in it. If you had to choose, you'd be likely playing D Minor, and the natural 6th would sound out of place and tonally be functioning as an accidental, rather than a mode. So your understanding or grasping to draw a chord progression (making it modal) is off here, way off.

4. Most of the time Locrian fits over a single chord. In your example, play A#m7b5 - that's it...dont move. Leave it there. Fun right? Yeah I dont think so either, but there you have the general idea of Locrian for most intents and purposes.

5. Attitude wise, I'm sure you mean well, but youre mostly way off track. Now that you know this as well, I'm sure it feels like a lot, and you probably have more questions, and the problem is you likely dont have the foundation to bear the answers to those questions. So what do you do when you don't understand the answers. Like tonality, cadences...modes (which you do not understand).

Sometimes the key indicator of someone not understanding modes, is their claim to understand them. Ironic, huh? There's no shorthand to this. Even at our online Academy for Theory applied to the guitar, if you saw our course catalog, you'll find that Modes are one of the very LAST things that we teach. By the time a student gets to Modes they know the entire neck, Diatonic Harmony and beyond, Cadences, Modulations, If you asked for a C min 7 b 9 they'd be able to correctly tell you instantly C Eb G Bb and Db, in seconds. They know chord construction, Key construction, and a bunch of subs and ways to move voicings etc. Then they get to modes, they understand tonal harmony, cadences etc and NOW they GET Modes and modal ideas and application.

That's what I mean by "foundational".

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 6, 2011,
#21
Quote by Sean0913
Sean's Wall.


This is the real answer TS, not some guitards.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

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#22
So if you wanted to play in D Dorian you just center the tonic and the chord progression on D right? (In this case you would use the chords found within C major very easy reference). But what is so hard or confusing about modes? Is it too hard to center the tonic and sense of resolution on the Dm chord?

All you are doing is shifting the home chord!! Why are people so confused?!?!?
Last edited by Unreal T at Dec 7, 2011,
#23
Quote by Unreal T
So if you wanted to play in D Dorian you just center the tonic and the chord progression on D right? (In this case you would use the chords found within C major very easy reference). But what is so hard or confusing about modes? Is it too hard to center the tonic and sense of resolution on the Dm chord?

All you are doing is shifting the home chord!! Why are people so confused?!?!?


Well, because shifting the "center of the tonic" isn't something you do naturally. Basically every chord progression wants to resolve in a normal, tonal fashion. For modal chord progressions you're for the most part stuck with vamps/drone notes.
#24
Quote by Unreal T
So if you wanted to play in D Dorian you just center the tonic and the chord progression on D right? (In this case you would use the chords found within C major very easy reference). But what is so hard or confusing about modes? Is it too hard to center the tonic and sense of resolution on the Dm chord?

All you are doing is shifting the home chord!! Why are people so confused?!?!?


Why are the chords found in C "easy reference"? Please explain how the chords in C resolve to Dm. It's possible yes, but, since you've gone out on the limb, I figure this is the ideal time to follow up and test this.

So please advise me how you'd go about it.

Best,

Sean
#25
Chords found in C are easy reference because they are the exact notes found in D Dorian but it really depends on how they are treated to sound dorian--they have different intervals when D becomes targeted as the root for the whole piece of music. I would just try to come up with a chord progression that sounds good and make sure to begin and end the piece on Dm to train my ear of the D dorian progression. thats all really. Maybe the progression will go Dm Em F Dm or something like that...
Last edited by Unreal T at Dec 7, 2011,
#26
I typed a couple of detailed posts explaining modes. link in my sig if you want to have a read. There's parts you have already got but if you go from the start to finish anyway it might fill in any gaps.
Si
#27
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Only a noob is going to give you the answer you want

****ing love it.
#28
Quote by Xter
Yeah... I'm just going to ask this thread is locked... My question was answered long ago and I got an answer to my question lol. This reminds me why modes are dreaded in Musician's Talk, so much debate over them. I only had one part mixed up but i'm pretty cleared up now and good.

Cheers Everyone!


There's no hope for humanity.
#30
Quote by Unreal T
Maybe the progression will go Dm Em F Dm or something like that...


Of course there is a problem arising here, can you spot it?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#31
Ok, i'm confused why people keep replying to this so I'll continue I guess.

If I want an Aeolian progression in E Major.
My notes are now C# D# E F# G# A B

So my progression is now I-vi-vii-I and it resolves to C#, thus modal.

Correct? I just tryed this on a keyboard and it sounded pretty resolved to me, but to state a fact I was only using the Tonic and 5th of each chord.

And if I wanted a different one I could go,
I-III-vi-I

They all resolve to C# from what I'm hearing.
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#32
Aeolian = natural minor scale

How can you have an aeolian progression in E major?

Edit: never mind, I just re-read your post... your progression is not aeolian in E major... it is simply a progression in C# minor
Last edited by mrkeka at Dec 8, 2011,
#33
Quote by Xter
Ok, i'm confused why people keep replying to this so I'll continue I guess.

If I want an Aeolian progression in E Major.
My notes are now C# D# E F# G# A B

So my progression is now I-vi-vii-I and it resolves to C#, thus modal.

Correct? I just tryed this on a keyboard and it sounded pretty resolved to me, but to state a fact I was only using the Tonic and 5th of each chord.

And if I wanted a different one I could go,
I-III-vi-I

They all resolve to C# from what I'm hearing.


Nope, it doesn't work that way. First off, in the 'I-vi-vii-I' progression, if you're using the C#m chord as your basis for Roman numerals, it should be i-VI-VII-i. Major chords get uppercase numerals, minor chords get lowercase numerals.

The reason why it sounds resolved, is because you're just playing a standard C#m progression. If you were to try the exact same thing with a progression 'built' from say, the F# dorian mode, you would realise that it does not resolve to the F# note or F#m chord.

Try it out.
#34
Quote by Xter
Ok, i'm confused why people keep replying to this so I'll continue I guess.

If I want an Aeolian progression in E Major.
My notes are now C# D# E F# G# A B

So my progression is now I-vi-vii-I and it resolves to C#, thus modal.

Correct? I just tryed this on a keyboard and it sounded pretty resolved to me, but to state a fact I was only using the Tonic and 5th of each chord.

And if I wanted a different one I could go,
I-III-vi-I

They all resolve to C# from what I'm hearing.


1. There's no such thing as an Aeolian progression in E Major. If a progression is in E Major it is not, and cannot be, Aeolian. And vice versa.

2. I don't understand the capitalisation in your "I-vi-vii-I" progression. Does the "I" mean E or C#? If it's C# wouldn't it be minor (lower case) and the "VI" and "VII" major (upper case)?

EDIT: someone else replied saying the same thing while I was writing. And it's also true that the progression would just be C# Minor, so no Aeolian modes need be invoked here.
Last edited by Jehannum at Dec 8, 2011,
#35
Quote by Jehannum
1. There's no such thing as an Aeolian progression in E Major. If a progression is in E Major it is not, and cannot be, Aeolian. And vice versa.

2. I don't understand the capitalisation in your "I-vi-vii-I" progression. Does the "I" mean E or C#? If it's C# wouldn't it be minor (lower case) and the "VI" and "VII" major (upper case)?

EDIT: someone else replied saying the same thing while I was writing. And it's also true that the progression would just be C# Minor, so no Aeolian modes need be invoked here


sorry it's early in the am for me. ment i as C#m. so yes it would i-VI-VII-i like the person above you said.

And sorry, I'm not up to par on modes, my Theory teacher told us the names, then poorly how they are used, played a progression using Dorian I think then moved on with his lesson last year.

And Aeolian is to the relative minor but using a phrase over top that uses C# D# E F# G# A B and ending the phrase on C#, wouldn't that make it modal because you are using the E Major Scale notes but the tonic is now shifted to C#m

EDIT: I just realized in classed how retarded this was... I wish I could of edited it but I was in class.

Being Aeolian is just the relative minor so really i'm just in C# minor, not a mode. I'm sorry for that epic fail
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Last edited by Xter at Dec 8, 2011,
#36
You're finding these things resolve because you're just using the relative minor. Nothing modal in the sense you're using the word here at all. It's very difficult to play a progression modally because when you start "progressing" in chords you get the effect that tonality is all about, which is a sense of forward motion. More often than not, today, things that are conceived modally are usually two chord vamp ideas that don't really go anywhere, but just kind of sit in one area.
#37
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
You're finding these things resolve because you're just using the relative minor. Nothing modal in the sense you're using the word here at all. It's very difficult to play a progression modally because when you start "progressing" in chords you get the effect that tonality is all about, which is a sense of forward motion. More often than not, today, things that are conceived modally are usually two chord vamp ideas that don't really go anywhere, but just kind of sit in one area.


Yeah I realized how stupid I was being in class, nothing special in it. Just in a minor key.

May I ask for a modal progression to see what one really looks like so I can examine it. I really wish my theory teacher would of gone into more detail last year rather then presenting the idea and moving on. I'm realizing how far off I am from understanding the concepts of being modal.
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#38
-4-4-4-4-5-4
-5-7-4-5-4-5
-4-6-4-6-4-4
-6-7-4-7---6
-4-4-4-4-4-4
-

--------
-9-7-7-5
-8-8-6-4
-9-9-7-6
--------
-0-0-0-0
#39
Quote by AlanHB
Of course there is a problem arising here, can you spot it?


Ok, what is the problem? I know they are your standard chords and no vamp may be going on with just 2 chords but it still will sound like the home chord is a Dm and it is possible to get a new sound such as the dorian flavor.

Can someone please tell me how to make a D Dorian chord progression if I am wrong!?!?!?!?? As simply as possible?!!! I don't think it can be that hard! Or can it!??!!
#40
Quote by Unreal T
Ok, what is the problem? I know they are your standard chords and no vamp may be going on with just 2 chords but it still will sound like the home chord is a Dm and it is possible to get a new sound such as the dorian flavor.

Can someone please tell me how to make a D Dorian chord progression if I am wrong!?!?!?!?? As simply as possible?!!! I don't think it can be that hard! Or can it!??!!


The problem is that the chord progression was in D minor. If that pesky F chord wasn't there you'd have a D dorian vamp.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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