#1
Hi I have a bit of a hard time understanding the theory in a certain way I've seen Diminished chords be played in the E shape of CAGED. I know that a Diminished chord contains the Root, flat third and flat 5th, but I've also seen the 6th interval added a lot of times when playing a E shape. For instance F# diminished =

F# (Root)
A (Flat 3rd)
C (Flat 5th)

If you look at this diagram a D# has been added as well;

http://www.how-to-play-guitar.eu/guitar_chords/Fsharp/Fsharpdim_Guitar_Chord.gif

The only explanation I can think for this is to stop the Perfect 5th clashing with the Diminished 5th played on the A string, it seems like adding in the D# would sort that out, but why is it still listed as a Standard F# diminished chord? My jazz Theory book also showed a Diminished chord with the 6th added. Any help much appreciated!


Cheers
#2
That's not a D#, it's an Eb... therefore not a sixth, but a dimished seventh
#3
Just got myself more confused

F# diminished would be built on the 7th interval from the G Major Parent Scale right? The D# listed in the Chord is not even part of the G Major Scale. Am I over thinking this?
#4
Think of it as being: Root, flat third, flat fifth, double flattened seventh
#5
It's a diminished 7th chord, they're a slightly different deal
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#7
Quote by tm1776
Just got myself more confused

F# diminished would be built on the 7th interval from the G Major Parent Scale right? The D# listed in the Chord is not even part of the G Major Scale. Am I over thinking this?



If you want to stay diatonic you can only build a half diminished chord from the Major scale. i.e. 1 b3 b5 b7

A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7

A bb7 is enharmonic to 6
#8
Quote by Myshadow46_2
If you want to stay diatonic you can only build a half diminished chord from the Major scale. i.e. 1 b3 b5 b7

A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7

A bb7 is enharmonic to 6



This has cleared a lot of confusion up for me. Thanks!
#10
Diminished chords can be confusing because at least 3 of them are common, and are sometimes mislabeled.

A Diminished TRIAD is what you describe as F#, A, C. It is the ii in a minor key or the vii in a major key.

A Half-Diminished (m7b5) is F#, A, C, E. This is also the ii in a minor key or the vii in a major key, but extended to include the 7th.

A Diminished 7th ("fully diminished") is F#, A, C, D#(Eb). It is the vii in a HARMONIC minor. Yes it's the major sixth, but it's thought of as the "diminished 7th".
It is commonly used over a V in a minor key.
[F#dim7 (F#, A, C, D#) over B = B7b9 (B, D#, F#, A, C). Then you follow resolve to Em.]

C.P.E. Bach considered ‘no chord… more convenient’… than the diminished seventh, ‘as a means of reaching the most distant keys more quickly and with agreeable suddenness’.

This is a good article on how to use the m7b5 (and other chords) in an emotive context.
Last edited by k3v1n shr3dz at Jan 21, 2013,
#11
Thanks k3v1n shr3dz

I will read the link you posted when I get home from work.
#12
Quote by tm1776
Hi I have a bit of a hard time understanding the theory in a certain way I've seen Diminished chords be played in the E shape of CAGED. I know that a Diminished chord contains the Root, flat third and flat 5th, but I've also seen the 6th interval added a lot of times when playing a E shape. For instance F# diminished =

F# (Root)
A (Flat 3rd)
C (Flat 5th)

If you look at this diagram a D# has been added as well;

http://www.how-to-play-guitar.eu/guitar_chords/Fsharp/Fsharpdim_Guitar_Chord.gif

The only explanation I can think for this is to stop the Perfect 5th clashing with the Diminished 5th played on the A string, it seems like adding in the D# would sort that out, but why is it still listed as a Standard F# diminished chord? My jazz Theory book also showed a Diminished chord with the 6th added. Any help much appreciated!


Cheers


Good observation, wrong conclusion - its a Dim 7th. It's not a 6th, it's a bb7. That's why you might think its a 6th, pitch wise. So a C dim 7 is C Eb Gb and Bbb (which you might have seen as an A the 6th, but terminology wise, it's a bb7 or, a Bbb)

Best,

Sean