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#1
Well, I think this is a topic that should encourage a lively debate.

http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/on-why-jazz-isnt-cool-anymore/

So, what are your thoughts on this.

My personal opinion; I think as jazz musicians we simply have to accept that the aesthetic of the music has changed. It is no longer the expression of a marginalized, racially oppressed group of people. It has been adopted by the high art community, and is now regarded as such.

However, I don't necessarily think we have to view this is all as purely negative; it simply means the music has changed. I mean, just because the music isn't hip in the way that it used to be, that means we should just abandon it altogether? Because other people have figured out about it and decided they like it?

One positive outcome of this is, now that jazz music is high art and accepted by academia, it is being taught right alongside common practice period classical music in the universities, which Miles himself said he wanted to happen.
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#2
Jazz will always be cool and never stopped being cool. It however has begun it's inevitable step into being unpopular which was bound to happen.
#4
Whoever wrote that article is an asshole.

He says jazz isn't a style of music and shouldn't be treated that way, then continues to use the term 'jazz' to refer to it. I thought it was pure, spontaneous, freedom, brah

Really though, things change. I wonder how many jazz musicians actually care whether or not people think what they do is 'cool'
#5
It's also popular with the intellectual African American community that's interested in its own past and culture, and in that way it is still an expression of the marginalized and racially oppressed. It's just that it's no longer popular and mainstream among the racial group that created it.
#6
Maceo Parker - "This is 10% jazz; 90% funky stuff.." You saying that he isn't cool? Are you saying that 10% of him isn't cool? I think not...
#8
You're missing his point entirely; I completely agree with what he is saying.
#9
is this the one where he says jazz isn't a genre, it's a marketing brand? yeah, because jazz is super marketable. edit: i guess he acknowledges that though.

nicholas payton is the rush limbaugh or christopher hitchens of jazz. i tend to ignore most of what he says. the dude just says things to get a rise out of people. like when he said racism exists because white people are an inferior race with inferior recessive genes and we oppress blacks to keep them from screwing our women so we don't become extinct.



also, be careful what you say about him on the internet. he doesn't exactly take things in stride:



edit: all that said, i do think he's a pretty excellent musician. at least the material i have.
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Dec 17, 2011,
#10
Quote by richjguitar
The birth of Cool - Miles Davis


this is still pure genius,
jazz will always be cool and is still some of the greatest music of all time. it would be a shame to loose the genius of artists like, miles davis and john coltrane to modern times and with acts like justin beiber and little mix moving into the spotlight we need them now more than ever!
#11
I agree because whenever the term jazz comes up the music starts taking on that 50's jazz sound. That isn't bad in itself - but it doesn't keep to itself. The modern 'jazz' gets the same jazz title of the older jazz when it isn't the same music at all. There's nothing else anyone can seem to agree calling it so we're all kind of screwed.
#14
Quote by liampje
This post is your opinion, why do you present your opinions as a fact?
People like you want to be a dictator.
gtfo


I just posted a quote and joked with it
#15
Conor, I don't think they are talking about you.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

Quote by liampje
I can write a coherent tune ... But 3/4? I play rock, not polka.
#16
Quote by liampje
This post is your opinion, why do you present your opinions as a fact?
People like you want to be a dictator.
gtfo

I said "my personal opinion", and also stated I was eager to hear what other people had to say on the matter.

Where did I suggest my viewpoint is the only correct one??
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#17
I don't know the guy but after reading that blog, guess I should go get some stuff. I agree with him. And if there was ever someone to start a revolution in the industry... a much needed one... then tag, he'd be it. But who would listen... hmmm

After seeing that FB post, lmfao... now THAT is a cool character! Lay down the gauntlet... although miles would really disapprove of that attitude. But, it's still a good gauntlet to lay down.
#18
Just to fire up something kind of related: I despise Wynton Marsalis's take on Jazz.

I wonder what he thinks of the likes of Bill Evans, Chick Corea, Buddy Rich, Hiromi Uehara, John Mclaughlin, etc.


Wynton sez: not jazz. Perhaps with the exception of Bill Evan's work with Miles, which he will still go through pains to diminish the importance of. Then he'll diss everything Miles himself did after about 1966.

In 1986, in Vancouver, Davis stopped his band to eject an uninvited Marsalis from the stage. Davis said "Wynton can't play the kind of shit we were playing", and twice told Marsalis "Get the **** off."

Go Miles.
Last edited by Brainpolice2 at Dec 17, 2011,
#19
I really dig

His absolute

No bones about it convictions

He's wrong though

Why? Because I said it and Im better than him

How do you know that? Cause you aint nothing

Who cares what you know

Im better, because I said it

And I write all my diatribes

In single sentences with pronounced spacing between lines

One, never 2 lines

I really like the way he thinks

We should all be authoritarian on topics

Intolerant of opinions, our view

And only our view counts

Thats not pretentious

And if you get the satire of this entire post

And all its irony and ridiculousness

You now know what I think of the guy

So hes a horn player, wanna cookie.

Powerful with zero influence.

Arrogance takes no effort at all.

Best,

Sean
#20
Quote by Sean0913


Best,

Sean


+1
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#21
I agree that the guys a massive twat but I think he's nailed his point. (it's glorious to read sean's post first and then the article btw, I was chuckling before I even clicked the link)

That said, going to such lengths over semantics never ends well.
#23
Quote by thegloaming
Well, I think this is a topic that should encourage a lively debate.

http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/on-why-jazz-isnt-cool-anymore/

So, what are your thoughts on this.

My personal opinion; I think as jazz musicians we simply have to accept that the aesthetic of the music has changed. It is no longer the expression of a marginalized, racially oppressed group of people. It has been adopted by the high art community, and is now regarded as such.

However, I don't necessarily think we have to view this is all as purely negative; it simply means the music has changed. I mean, just because the music isn't hip in the way that it used to be, that means we should just abandon it altogether? Because other people have figured out about it and decided they like it?

One positive outcome of this is, now that jazz music is high art and accepted by academia, it is being taught right alongside common practice period classical music in the universities, which Miles himself said he wanted to happen.


It's quite simple. Things that are in fashion, eventually become old fashioned. That's what's happened to jazz. It's relevance/influence though, will be felt for quite some time.

Enjoy it for what it is.
shred is gaudy music
#24
Quote by GuitarMunky
It's quite simple. Things that are in fashion, eventually become old fashioned. That's what's happened to jazz.

This is exactly what my Jazz teacher at college said.
#25
Quote by evolucian
After seeing that FB post, lmfao... now THAT is a cool character! Lay down the gauntlet...


you think a 40 year old man who picks fights on Facebook is "cool?" Guessing you're 14.

although miles would really disapprove of that attitude.


what?
#DTWD
#26
Quote by primusfan
you think a 40 year old man who picks fights on Facebook is "cool?" Guessing you're 14.

Definitely 14

However... that was a page they both belonged to or something. And when you stir shit on there (and the people know each other or it seems that way... no idea what page it came from) and you get your bluff called... well... I guess its been called.

It doesn't matter how racist the guy is... who isn't? There will always be something stirring somewhere. If you have a problem with someone... then you take it up with them personally... not on a frikkin public (?) page where you get to insult the guy and then take umbridge (or non response) if he responds.

The Matt guy clearly took a ridiculous stance by asking others what he should do with that guy's cd's... he stirred the pot... Payton took the spoon. It's not picking a fight... it's accepting the challenge. Matt could clearly have just left it alone, chuck the discs away and thats it.

His cd is possibly part of his livelihood... even if he gives them away (some marketing or a "Hey, listen to this... tell me wotcha tink" or "You owe me money for that")... it makes perfect sense to back himself up. You see it one way.. I see it another... and yeah... I still think he's a cool character

*edit* or maybe miles will have approved... my bad.
Last edited by evolucian at Dec 17, 2011,
#27
it's a poetic blog post. not meant for people on random forums to argue about the legitimacy of his powerful claims and his appalling dissertation or whatever offends people.

i really enjoy the quote, it's kind of one of those "this nigga good" or "what how dare he" things though.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#28
The poem is good and hes 100% right I think

It really represents a bigger more important struggle--the constant necessity to redefine yourself as an artist.

Hes just saying that the music got a name, and once it got a name, it stopped evolving (which I kind of agree with). Its basically just a commentary on what words mean, and what genres mean.
#29
It's also popular with the intellectual African American community QUOTE]
Dam Right!!!
"its not the destination.... so much as the journey" one once said
#30
Quote by Sean0913
I really dig

His absolute

No bones about it convictions

He's wrong though

Why? Because I said it and Im better than him

How do you know that? Cause you aint nothing

Who cares what you know

Im better, because I said it

And I write all my diatribes

In single sentences with pronounced spacing between lines

One, never 2 lines

I really like the way he thinks

We should all be authoritarian on topics

Intolerant of opinions, our view

And only our view counts

Thats not pretentious

And if you get the satire of this entire post

And all its irony and ridiculousness

You now know what I think of the guy

So hes a horn player, wanna cookie.

Powerful with zero influence.

Arrogance takes no effort at all.

Best,

Sean

Hahahahahaha. +1, man, +1.
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#31
I read this last month. No fuckin' clue what he was trying to say. Don't care. I like jizz.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
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Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#32
So, to try to keep the conversation moving forward, what do you guys think the future of jazz will be like?

I saw this video of some Berklee students mixing standard jazz repetoire and acoustic instruments with laptop/electronic improvisation. I am actually quite curious about the possibilities that could present.
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#33
Have you checked out Kurt Rosenwinkel's Heartcore? Great blend of electronic/hip hop/modern jazz.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#34
No I haven't heard that, but I like that player quite a bit, I'll check it out.
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#35
Here's the self titled track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20oVcZYZ_0Q

aww yeh

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#37
Oooh, I know a few of those guys! I'll have to compliment them on this when I see them.

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#38
I think Jazz Music and musicians are cool... Jazz musicians are usually amazing too
#39
Quote by Xiaoxi
Oooh, I know a few of those guys! I'll have to compliment them on this when I see them.

You know Tommy, by chance?
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#40
I have such mixed feelings about Nicholas Payton. I absolutely love his playing, that isn't in question here. What is in question is how high he holds himself in regards to the music. He seems to be getting a bit too big for his briches.
Co-Founder of the Jazz Guitarist Community. PM me or Zeppelin256 to join.

Come listen to Zeppelin256 and I jam over some jazz tunes! Unit 7
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