#1
hope this thread doesnt turn into another topic, Im not here to ask What are modes or how do I play them im just simply asking
to describe to me what mood each individual mode expresses


for example

Aeolian - minor, Dark,

phrygian - spanish sounding

Dorian - bluesy


am hoping this thread will answer questions for others who might be wondering the same

(plz try to stay on topic)
(this is not a troll invite)
"its not the destination.... so much as the journey" one once said
Last edited by Marqway at Dec 21, 2011,
#2
Look for a xdarrenx post on modes - I think there's a link in the modes sticky.

He gives a good run down about the characters of modes iirc

Here's the link:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=997405

There's another link that he posted which follows on from this but in this one he characterizes the moods he feels each mode elicits. It's worth having a read of both of them.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Dec 21, 2011,
#3
Quote by Marqway
Aeolian - minor, Dark,

Lydian - spanish sounding

Dorian - bluesy


I wouldn't particularly say that Aoelian is dark, it's just minor or sad ; sad can be dark, but it doesn't have to be.

Lydian is more alien-y or spacey, Vai's stuff doesn't so much spanish as weird and spacey. If you want something spanish, a better choice would be phrygian (dominant).

Dorian... Hopeful minor.
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Last edited by Dream Floyd at Dec 21, 2011,
#5
I think minor can express any mood.
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#6
this all hurts so much

scales don't have moods, it's how you use them. the major scale can sound sad, and the minor scale can sound happy. you just have to approach the sound as a whole rather than the restriction of the diatonic tones.

and no, you're not playing modes, you're playing scales with accidentals. learning to utilize each individual accidental is helpful, and pretending they're modes will give you a handful of nifty accidentals, but nothing can really substitute learning scalar theory fully and accurately.
modes are a social construct
#7
This seems awfully similar to the keys/personalities threads......
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#8
ionian - why
dorian - are
phrygian - you
lydian - talking
mixolydian - about
aeolian - modes
locrian - you
lydian b7 - goddamn
altered dominant - hippy
locrian natural 9 -

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#10
i chose to ignore him, for bein immature...

20tigers gave me enough with the link
"its not the destination.... so much as the journey" one once said
#11
Quote by Xiaoxi
ionian - why
dorian - are
phrygian - you
lydian - talking
mixolydian - about
aeolian - modes
locrian - you
lydian b7 - goddamn
altered dominant - hippy
locrian natural 9 -


irrelevant, this guys obviously looking for attention by looking at his comments on other threads he does this alot

excuse me if i sound rude, am just lil irritated by the amount of trolls/spam starters on this site that show up in every threads judging and stereotyping the TS for asking common questions
"its not the destination.... so much as the journey" one once said
Last edited by Marqway at Dec 22, 2011,
#12
the best answer given so far was this:

Quote by Hail
this all hurts so much

scales don't have moods, it's how you use them. the major scale can sound sad, and the minor scale can sound happy. you just have to approach the sound as a whole rather than the restriction of the diatonic tones.

and no, you're not playing modes, you're playing scales with accidentals. learning to utilize each individual accidental is helpful, and pretending they're modes will give you a handful of nifty accidentals, but nothing can really substitute learning scalar theory fully and accurately.


quite frankly, this hit the nail 100% on the head.

if you try to assign moods to modes and scales like aeolian = dark, phrygian = spanish, etc., it's basically a primitive way to think of it and it doesn't promote a deep understanding. let me give you an analogy -- it's like always thinking of red as angry, blue as calm, purple as majestic...it's impossible to associate one color with one constant concept or emotion. this topic is the same exact deal.

also, i wouldn't knock xiaoxi. he knows his stuff better than most. granted it wasn't the most helpful response but if you think all the things he's saying around here are spam/trolling, i advise you to learn a bit more, come back, and rethink it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#13
Quote by AeolianWolf
the best answer given so far was this:


quite frankly, this hit the nail 100% on the head.

if you try to assign moods to modes and scales like aeolian = dark, phrygian = spanish, etc., it's basically a primitive way to think of it and it doesn't promote a deep understanding. let me give you an analogy -- it's like always thinking of red as angry, blue as calm, purple as majestic...it's impossible to associate one color with one constant concept or emotion. this topic is the same exact deal.

also, i wouldn't knock xiaoxi. he knows his stuff better than most. granted it wasn't the most helpful response but if you think all the things he's saying around here are spam/trolling, i advise you to learn a bit more, come back, and rethink it.
He should knock xiaoxi all he wants. Xiaoxi's post is not only unhelpful but inflammotary and insulting to the TS. He has every right to think whatever he likes of xiaoxi.
===

Back on topic...
You say it's like thinking of red as angry blue as calm purple as majestic etc.
Is that really such a silly idea? Perhaps not quite as simple as you've written it there which is often more of a colour association but I'm fairly sure that colour psychology is a fairly well accepted principle.

Isn't it widely believed that colour can have a direct affect on our physiological state? Or more specifically, colour combinations can have a predictable response in a subject. At least that is what I understand (any psychologists in the house?)

So if it is like colour, as you suggest (I'm not necessarily suggesting it is), then it would be more logical to assume that different sound combinations and relationships (such as a scale) can have a specific phsychological reaction, soothing, energizing, stimulating etc. just as colour can.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Dec 22, 2011,
#14
Quote by 20Tigers
You say it's like thinking of red as angry blue as calm purple as majestic etc. Is that really such a silly idea?


it's not so much silly as it is primitive and restrictive. red can be angry, blue can be calm, and purple can be majestic, but if you're going to tell me that such is the case 100% of the time, you might want to rethink your case.

Quote by 20Tigers
Perhaps not quite as simple as you've written it there which is often more of a colour association but I'm fairly sure that colour psychology is a fairly well accepted principle.


not the color psychology where one color always means one thing.

Quote by 20Tigers
So if it is like colour, as you suggest (I'm not necessarily suggesting it is), then it would be more logical to assume that different sound combinations and relationships (such as a scale) can have a specific phsychological reaction, soothing, energizing, stimulating etc. just as colour can.


so you don't think you can create a soothing shade of red? an energizing shade of blue? a stimulating shade of purple? i say you can. which is why i am of the opinion that it's extremely restrictive just to think of modes and/or scales as having intrinsic psychological properties. there's still phrasing and orchestration, to name two major factors, to contend with. and far more, which (and you can call it elitist, but i call it realistic) is generally out of the scope of your average guitarist.

it's better to see everything holistically. the advantages are far greater, and comprehension can occur on a deeper level than it could otherwise.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Dec 22, 2011,
#15
Im just going to say this: Xiaoxi knows his shit incredibly well, considering. But I feel like him too, we get too many people like you ("plz tell modes, im not newb, i no modes.")

But in the end, your better off leaving them alone for now. Come back once you know that SCALES DO NOT HAVE A PARTICULAR FEEL, MOOD, EMOTION, COLOR, RACE, POKEMON, ATTRIBUTED TO THEM. IT IS THE WAY YOU USE THEM.

And I dont mean, "oh this guy said scales dont have a feeling, so i know it." No. You don't know it. Internalize the knowledge to the point that it becomes truth. Use it creatively.
Understand nothing, in order to learn everything.

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#16
Quote by 20Tigers
He should knock xiaoxi all he wants. Xiaoxi's post is not only unhelpful but inflammotary and insulting to the TS. He has every right to think whatever he likes of xiaoxi.
===
im fairly sure that colour psychology is a fairly well accepted principle.

Isn't it widely believed that colour can have a direct affect on our physiological state? Or more specifically, colour combinations can have a predictable response in a subject. At least that is what I understand (any psychologists in the house?)


Yes and no, when it comes to marketing and consumers, it is applied as hell and every little detail is exploited, we are so predictable that studies have shown we are way more likely to buy things that have a color that relates to upcoming events (e.g when presented with the exact same product around halloween one with a green cover and the other with an orange cover you would pick the orange one).

Shiny things make us walk slower (mac store anyone), showing someone the exact same picture of someone wearing a)non red color shirt b)red colored shirt
ends up in person on picture b) being rated as more attractive...red might make us hungry.. (macdonalds comes to mind) etc, etc..

However for emotions and feelings elicited this is pretty much esoterical and personal (no statistical significance on the studies ive come across)

Must be mainly because those associations are not hardwired (red and shiny colors might be the exception, because from a biological/genetic/survivalist pov it makes sense for them to make us alert) but learned through conditioning and life experiences.

If you think about it even a really strong color like red can have many (even contradictory meanings): it can be agressive, it can be tender, it can be inspiring, it can be soothing and warm, it can be relaxing, it can be upsetting, and this applies to pretty much any color. etc.. just like a scale.

Im no expert, just a Bachelor Student, and im not saying that there are no relations, just not as we are commonly taught
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Last edited by Slashiepie at Dec 22, 2011,
#17
Quote by vampirelazarus
Im just going to say this: Xiaoxi knows his shit incredibly well, creatively.



and thats what im talkin about some of the ppl on the site are like that, they know alot and could easily answer questions but instead they wanna act like trolls,

All m saying here is in future Either Answer the TS question in a unbiased manner or keep it moving, but dont come on here tryna clownin the TS like their an inferior being.


and its funny when ppl say , "I advise u to learn abit more" well one way to learn is by asking questions but unfortunately when I ask questions i gotta deal with who try to encourage u to NOT ask questions by posting negative comments
"its not the destination.... so much as the journey" one once said
Last edited by Marqway at Dec 22, 2011,
#18
Quote by Marqway
"I advise u to learn abit more" well one way to learn is by asking questions


it sure is. one way to learn. only one way. see, a more effective way is to find some material, study it, and learn it thoroughly by applying it and putting it into practice. when you have trouble with that, then you come ask questions.

you said in the beginning that you're not asking what modes are. you're simply asking for a description of each individual mode. see, the very fact that you're asking this question makes me think that you should be learning about what modes are from one of the 70,000 mode threads we have here. or better yet, the modes sticky. why? not so we can tell you you need to learn modes. people like me and the other knowledgeable members around here have ours down, and, quite frankly, it's of absolutely no consequence to us whether you know it or not. it's for your benefit and only your benefit.

i strongly suggest you check out the modes thread. if you find that you don't understand it, that means that some study of more basic theory is in order. if you find that you do understand it, take it slowly and make sure you understand everything before moving on. and don't forget to put everything into practice -- you won't be able to do much just by reading about it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#19
Relax guys, I was JOKING

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#20
Quote by AeolianWolf
not the color psychology where one color always means one thing.
I didn't mean that colour means a specific thing but has a specific effect on the viewer or elicits a specific physioligical/pyschological state that is different than that of other colours.

Well you would compare colours of the same shades as it is colour you are comparing. So if you create a soothing shade of red then you would compare and equivalent shade of green which might be more soothing. And my understanding is that the strongest most predictable responses are from combinations of colours.

But we are getting off topic.

Quote by AeolianWolf
so you don't think you can create a soothing shade of red? an energizing shade of blue? a stimulating shade of purple? i say you can. which is why i am of the opinion that it's extremely restrictive just to think of modes and/or scales as having intrinsic psychological properties. there's still phrasing and orchestration, to name two major factors, to contend with. and far more, which (and you can call it elitist, but i call it realistic) is generally out of the scope of your average guitarist.

it's better to see everything holistically. the advantages are far greater, and comprehension can occur on a deeper level than it could otherwise.


I agree absolutely that tempo, phrasing, orchestration, timbre, and a ton of other factors will help to affect the "mood" of a piece of music. But does that mean scale choice is not one of many factors? Each factor contributes.

Is it so objectionable to isolate one possible factor and compare different options? The specific factor that the TS is asking about is scale choice.

The correct responses to the thread would be
Scale choice makes no difference to the mood of a piece.
or
Scale choice does have an affect to the mood of a piece. I believe X scales lend themselves to X type of effects or have an X type of sound.

You could of course argue semantics about the use of the word "mood" which is probably misleading. You could instead use the word "character" or "quality" or some other word and then try to use words to express what you think each scale will provide.

To say that the major scale is "bold" or "strong" compared to say a minor scale which is more "delicate" or "subdued" is obviously different than saying "happy" and "sad" which is more common.

While using moods might be erroneous the people that use such words are intending to describe a qualitative difference they hear in different scales and are grasping for words to articulate those somewhat elisive understandings.

I don't think it's very productive to write off their thoughts because they might have used a bad choice of words. It seems to me to be more productive to try to understand what they are getting at as it helps discussion and mutual understanding rather than trying to be "right" or "wrong".

In regards to Slashiepie's enlightening response thank you for your input.

On the matter of marketing I don't know if anyone has ever read the Dale Carnegie classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People" - In the book he advises to "always speak in a major key." (at least I think it was that book - it was a long time ago that I pulled that off my Dad's shelf. I have also seen professional speaking courses that incorporate this same idea into part of their course.

So if marketers/sales men and professional speakers can recognize a difference in key choice to acheive a desired response in their audience wouldn't it make sense for a musician to have a grasp of the same concept??

So yes, you are absolutely right AeolianWolf, there are many factors that contribute to expressing a specific idea but are all scales equal? Does scale choice play any part? If so how would you describe different scale characteristics? What do you think each scale (or even mode) is best suited to achieve?
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Dec 23, 2011,
#21
i'm exhausted right now, so i'm going to say this for the moment:

scale choice is under the concept of phrasing. phrasing by itself is comprised of more than just scale choice. so to say that scale choice is a factor intrinsically is true, but is simply splitting hairs. not to mention that, unless you're improvising over giant steps, it's more effective to think in terms of notes than in scales. the potential is greater. it's limiting to think only in scales, really. and the fact that we're pulling modes into the equation which, given a little common sense and a bit of experience of sifting through threads on UG, we're not even sure the TS understands.

i'll post more tomorrow if i remember to come back here.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#22
No worries. I really don't get this whole objection to scales thing.

The concept is simple though:
Do scales provide have different "characteristics"? Describe those characteristics in a way that can be understood by a non musician.

Maybe you would say a major scale is masculine while a minor scale is feminine. There are all sorts of ways you can describe their qualities. It might be subjective but it doesn't make sense to me to say that there are no inherent differences.

While it is all interrelated and works together to produce the desired effect We can still isolate individual factors to better understand how each element contributes to the whole. The sum of the parts will be more than the whole but that doesn't mean the parts have no value.
Si
#23
Quote by 20Tigers


In regards to Slashiepie's enlightening response thank you for your input.

On the matter of marketing I don't know if anyone has ever read the Dale Carnegie classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People" - In the book he advises to "always speak in a major key." (at least I think it was that book - it was a long time ago that I pulled that off my Dad's shelf. I have also seen professional speaking courses that incorporate this same idea into part of their course.

So if marketers/sales men and professional speakers can recognize a difference in key choice to acheive a desired response in their audience wouldn't it make sense for a musician to have a grasp of the same concept??

So yes, you are absolutely right AeolianWolf, there are many factors that contribute to expressing a specific idea but are all scales equal? Does scale choice play any part? If so how would you describe different scale characteristics? What do you think each scale (or even mode) is best suited to achieve?


Going to devour that book

_____________________________

Btw from a learning psychology perspective (musical stuff aside for a moment) it makes tremendous sense to try to associate any given information we want to learn with anything we can, the more associations and the strongest the relation (eliociting feelings being one of the strongest kind) facilitates the learning process enourmosly. Scales are after all information/auditive cues.

One of the most effective and easiest ways to learn something is to associate certain feelings with that information, wether we want it ot not our brain is going to make a relation anyway.

Since human nature is to categorize, Associations of the same kind are practically instantly available once a schemata (mental shortcut) is activated, e.g being sad does make all the sad experiences and associations quickly available to your brain, if certain phrases or scales were assimilated as such you will spit them out and feel like they are just flowing.

So i guess the lesson of this story is as always practice, go play around with your guitar and associate feelings with phrases/chords/notes/scales/the m word/. The common descriptions are a good guideline for a beginner but should be replaced or expanded upon personal experience.
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Last edited by Slashiepie at Dec 23, 2011,
#24
I'd be interested to read about that "speak in major" bit, as I'd assume there's much more that comes into play than simply a key. I've had plenty of people tell me that they take everything I say seriously because of my voice, and in general a lot of people tend to treat me as though I know what I'm talking about after hearing me speak. I don't know if I speak in major, but I'll pay attention now, I guess.
#25
Quote by :-D
I'd be interested to read about that "speak in major" bit, as I'd assume there's much more that comes into play than simply a key. I've had plenty of people tell me that they take everything I say seriously because of my voice, and in general a lot of people tend to treat me as though I know what I'm talking about after hearing me speak. I don't know if I speak in major, but I'll pay attention now, I guess.


Hhh there is this book by Cialdini where he describes this little experiment they did..
at a university there were students waiting in line to use the copy machine.

Variant a)

Person X came and asked if she could use the copy machine BECAUSE she was late.
93% of the time people complied

Variant b)

Person X came and asked if she could use the copy machine.
60% complied

Variant c)

Person X came and asked if she could use the copy machine BECAUSE she needed to make some copies (WTF SHERLOCK)

.....
...
..
93% complied

They attributed it through further experimenting to the use of the word because. ( not the word itself but making a sentence that includes giving a reason even though it is not logical resulted in compliance)

We are so silly sometimes.


Now go use your perfect pitch speak in major and follow all your sentences with because!! You will be the king of the world!

"Can i sleep with you because i want to sleep with you (F Major)"
?% of the girls complied ?
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Last edited by Slashiepie at Dec 23, 2011,
#26
Yeah, it's interesting to hear how our minds pick up on all this little stuff that on a surface level we'd really pay no attention to me. Speaking of the can I sleep with you bit, the worst successful line I've ever used (while completely smashed) was "hi, would you like to see a more than above average penis?"

The wonders of beer.

In my case I think it has to do with the pitch and tone of my voice rather than anything I'm actually saying.
Last edited by :-D at Dec 23, 2011,