Page 1 of 3
#1
Recently, on another forum, someone suggested my VT20+, with its 8" speaker, wasn't good enough to play a quality instrument through. They suggested that the small speaker wouldn't allow some of the subtle nuances of the guitar to come through, and that I should buy an amp with a bigger speaker.

Aside from whether or not those points are accurate, let us assume they are. Would putting in a better 8" speaker improve the quality of the sound? Would a better speaker allow more of those subtle nuances to come through?
#2
Typically a 12" speaker is used for guitar amps but nothing wrong with rocking out your VT20 man. A different speaker will yeild a different sound. Better? Maybe? depends on how YOU like the way it sounds? How do you like the way it sounds right now? What's wrong with what you are hearing? At some point you will want to get a new amp im sure but for now save your money... If you hate your sound then we can recomend some different amps for you but need to know what your budget looks like as well as what type of music you play etc.
#3
yes it would, but the point being made is that the bass response of an 8" is nothing compared to a 12 or 15". for instance downtuned guitars sound crap through smaller speakers.
#4
Depends on what you are after.

Many old Fenders came with 8" speakers and they are some very sought after amps.

So what are you after?
#5
I'm just trying to get some confirmation or otherwise of whether there was any merit in the other guys point of view.

I'm not going to be swapping my VT20+ anytime soon. It's perfect for me. I'm looking to pair it with a Tyler Variax modelling guitar so I'll be able to get any sounds I want.
#6
What I can assume is that the other forum meant that a modeller can't allow subtle nuances to come through, but then again the same could be said about any amp, any speaker, any cables, any pedals, etc.

Play what you want through it, and see how it sounds. If you like it, who cares what everyone else says.
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#7
Quote by irnmadn88
Depends on what you are after.

Many old Fenders came with 8" speakers and they are some very sought after amps.

So what are you after?

They aren't sought after because of the speaker. What you do is run them through a cab with 12" speakers. People buy them despite the speaker, not because of it.
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#8
Quote by Cathbard
They aren't sought after because of the speaker. What you do is run them through a cab with 12" speakers. People buy them despite the speaker, not because of it.


True. Isn't that what is being suggested? Taking an amp with a stock 8" speaker and running it through a larger speaker?

The TS is not going to do a speaker swap. He is going after a modeling guitar into modeling amp though an 8" speaker for many sounds.

I was asking more along the lines of what sound he wanted.

I am certainly not saying that a Vox modeling amp is as desirable as a vintage Fender.
#9
I was asking more whether putting in a better 8" speaker into the VT20+ would let more of the sound of the guitar models through than the stock 8" speaker. I'm not going to put a 10" or 12" speaker in there.
#10
Quote by deano_l
I was asking more whether putting in a better 8" speaker into the VT20+ would let more of the sound of the guitar models through than the stock 8" speaker. I'm not going to put a 10" or 12" speaker in there.


i am not familiar with your amp, but have heard demos of digital amps before and after speaker swaps.

i know some digital solid state amps have a flat response speakers in them, so the amp models are more accurate. if you were to put a guitar speaker in there just because it is the most common speaker, the V30, it has a heavy upper mid spike, if that was the case your fender models woudn't sound as fender because of the speaker having that mid spike.
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#11
Quote by deano_l
I'm just trying to get some confirmation or otherwise of whether there was any merit in the other guys point of view.

I'm not going to be swapping my VT20+ anytime soon. It's perfect for me. I'm looking to pair it with a Tyler Variax modelling guitar so I'll be able to get any sounds I want.
Wait a minute.. you're planning on running a $1500 variax guitar thru a $150 modeling amp??
#12
Quote by BobDetroit
Wait a minute.. you're planning on running a $1500 variax guitar thru a $150 modeling amp??

Yeah, pretty dumb.
I wonder if anything will be real or if he intends to get an android to play it for him as well.
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Cathbard Amplification
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#13
Quote by Cathbard
Yeah, pretty dumb.
I wonder if anything will be real or if he intends to get an android to play it for him as well.


I was going to insult you right back, but then I noticed you were from the colonies, so I've had to take some time choosing small words. Apologies therefore for the delay...

... my, aren't we quite the little nitro and valves snob! My guess is that you have some little Hondo guitar and amp package and like to pretend that you have some vintage gear for the kudos, so you can sit at the cool kids table. If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all. Isn't that what our fathers taught us? Then again, being an Aussie, your father would better be described as "some soldiers!"
#14
Quote by deano_l
I was going to insult you right back, but then I noticed you were from the colonies, so I've had to take some time choosing small words. Apologies therefore for the delay...

... my, aren't we quite the little nitro and valves snob! My guess is that you have some little Hondo guitar and amp package and like to pretend that you have some vintage gear for the kudos, so you can sit at the cool kids table. If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all. Isn't that what our fathers taught us? Then again, being an Aussie, your father would better be described as "some soldiers!"




Idiot of the year award 2011. It's a late entry but you're up there.


Don't change the speaker in the VT20. It's designed to have a flat response, if you modify that then you'll bugger up the amp models. Which is what Derek said.
#15
Quote by deano_l
I was going to insult you right back, but then I noticed you were from the colonies, so I've had to take some time choosing small words. Apologies therefore for the delay...

... my, aren't we quite the little nitro and valves snob! My guess is that you have some little Hondo guitar and amp package and like to pretend that you have some vintage gear for the kudos, so you can sit at the cool kids table. If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all. Isn't that what our fathers taught us? Then again, being an Aussie, your father would better be described as "some soldiers!"

Calling you an idiot for using a $1500 guitar with a $150 amp doesn't make him a valve snob, it makes him right.

You said yourself that someone had suggested your amp wasn't good enough, and you were asking for advise. Its not the speaker, its the amp. For a small home practice amp its fine, you shouldn't be expecting amazing tones from it, but you aren't going get the best out of the guitar with that amp.
#16
Quote by BobDetroit
Wait a minute.. you're planning on running a $1500 variax guitar thru a $150 modeling amp??


Yes. Why shouldn't I. Quite a few people have asked that question, but nobody has yet answered mine... "why not?" It can't be the speaker size because a vintage fender champ would have peope drooling, so why not? What will the problem be?

Idiot of the year eh Dan? So peope can insult me, but I'm not allowed to hit back! Are you his "special friend" or something Dan?
#17
Quote by deano_l
Yes. Why shouldn't I. Quite a few people have asked that question, but nobody has yet answered mine... "why not?" It can't be the speaker size because a vintage fender champ would have peope drooling, so why not? What will the problem be?

Idiot of the year eh Dan? So peope can insult me, but I'm not allowed to hit back! Are you his "special friend" or something Dan?


Ok. There's nothing wrong with you running the guitar through that amp, however it's a waste, simply because you're only ever going to sound like the models on the guitar amp. If you upgrade your amp you will notice the tone of the guitar more, which is the whole point of the Variax.

I've already explained why you shouldn't upgrade the speaker in the amp. What you really need to do, is reassess your gear situation, and either buy a different amp, or not bother with the Variax. You will be wasting time, and will be sorely disappointed when you get your Variax, and it sounds the same as your old guitar through every model.

Cathbard is one of the most respected users in this forum, and actually builds and repairs amplifiers for a living. You should probably listen to him. You might get further.
#18
But Dan, all he posted was this...

Quote by Cathbard
Yeah, pretty dumb.
I wonder if anything will be real or if he intends to get an android to play it for him as well.


Nothing there to warrant my respecting the guy. Plenty to attack, but nothing to respect.
#19
Because we already answered the question, you're just too stubborn to accept it.
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#20
Quote by deano_l
Yes. Why shouldn't I. Quite a few people have asked that question, but nobody has yet answered mine... "why not?" It can't be the speaker size because a vintage fender champ would have peope drooling, so why not? What will the problem be?

Idiot of the year eh Dan? So peope can insult me, but I'm not allowed to hit back! Are you his "special friend" or something Dan?

No one has said why not? OK, here goes. It's a waste of money. Your amp is a huge part of your sound (more than your guitar, depending on who you ask). If you think that there is nothing wrong with spending 10x on your guitar than your amp, then you're clearly ignorant, or just an idiot. Would you drop 5 grand on a TV, and then hook up a VCR to it?

Second off, Cathbard has forgotten more about amps than you will probably ever learn. You insulting him and accusing him of playing "some little Hondo guitar and amp package" is too stupid to even be offensive, it's just hilarious. If you're going to insult someone on a personal level, know who you're talking to.

Have fun with your idiotic rig. Good luck on moving out of mom's basement.
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#21
Quote by souperman08
No one has said why not? OK, here goes. It's a waste of money. Your amp is a huge part of your sound (more than your guitar, depending on who you ask). If you think that there is nothing wrong with spending 10x on your guitar than your amp, then you're clearly ignorant, or just an idiot. Would you drop 5 grand on a TV, and then hook up a VCR to it?

Second off, Cathbard has forgotten more about amps than you will probably ever learn. You insulting him and accusing him of playing "some little Hondo guitar and amp package" is too stupid to even be offensive, it's just hilarious. If you're going to insult someone on a personal level, know who you're talking to.

Have fun with your idiotic rig. Good luck on moving out of mom's basement.


Okay, so you have said. No references to signals being attenuated, how the construction impacts the sound, nothing on how the modelling code reduces the sound quality. Nothing at all. Just "we've told you, so accept it or your an idiot".

do you know what? I don't actually think you have any real explanation for why my amp will not reproduce the sound to a decent standard. If you did you would be all over this with technical, evidence based answers. All you have got is based around money. Nothing more.

Secondly, I don't care how worshipped he is, if he want to start insulting me (and reading above will show that he did START with the insults) for asking questions, then I'm going to respond in kind. What did you expect? For me to be insulted, then do some research into how experienced he is? Not going to happen my friend. An insult sent will get one back.

Thirdly, his insult, such as it was, says more about him than it does about me. Here it is in case you have forgotten it...

Quote by Cathbard
Yeah, pretty dumb.
I wonder if anything will be real or if he intends to get an android to play it for him as well.


Clearly it is a dig at all things modelling. Okay I get it. He has a position of respect here because of his knowledge of analogue electronics. Digital, modelling technology is a threat to him because he cannot fix, repair, correct or offer any guidance on that subject. So pull it to pieces and hope nobody notices!

Also, can we assume that “reality” is a valve amplifier turned up quite loud, and an expensive American made PRS, Fender, Gibson or the like, and anything less is simply to be sneered at.

I don't like being sneered at by an Australian. It is like being pissed on by a sewer-rat. In the end though, I'll get dry, but he'll always be an Australian.

The general consensus seems to be that putting in a better quality 8” speaker will not have any effect on the amplifier. I'm not sure why not but I'll take that as the answer to my original question.

The rest is just technology-bashing, hero-worship, or empty opinions not backed up with anything substantive, and not anything to do with my original question.

I just wish someone would show me some graphs, figures or schematics that indicate why little modeller is a poor amp to play a good guitar through. Why, indeed should my VT20+ be the equivalent of VCR? Where is the evidence for that? Plenty of people stating it as fact (and resorting to name-calling if we don't buy in to the “fact&rdquo, but nobody is showing any objective evidence for it.

The irony is that plenty of people on this forum have said it is nothing to do with the speaker and it is the amplifier itself which is poor. Yet on the other forum I referred to in my original post, they were claiming the amp was okay, good even, but the small speaker will adversely impact the sound quality! Two groups of experts, neither of whom can agree, and all set on protecting an expensive, old-fashioned technology only useful if it's played loudly, even though they have no real ammunition to fire.
#22
No one ever said modellers were bad amps.

Yes an 8" speaker isn't an ideal size for a guitar amp, but it's fine for practice.

No it's not worth upgrading.

Why are you comparing guitar amps to things that play movies.

What have you got against Australia? Ever been?
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#23
Quote by deano_l
The general consensus seems to be that putting in a better quality 8” speaker will not have any effect on the amplifier. I'm not sure why not but I'll take that as the answer to my original question.

The rest is just technology-bashing, hero-worship, or empty opinions not backed up with anything substantive, and not anything to do with my original question.

I just wish someone would show me some graphs, figures or schematics that indicate why little modeller is a poor amp to play a good guitar through. Why, indeed should my VT20+ be the equivalent of VCR? Where is the evidence for that? Plenty of people stating it as fact (and resorting to name-calling if we don't buy in to the “fact&rdquo, but nobody is showing any objective evidence for it.

Are you mentally deficient? How can you possibly expect someone to quantify something like guitar tones? It is impossible to produce graphs or figures to show why any guitar amp is unsuitable, because it is an entirely subjective matter.

The VT20 is not a particularly great amp, that is a widely accepted opinion held by many experienced guitarists. That doesn't mean its bad. Its a practice amp, it isn't meant to be the best sounding amp ever. You might like its tone, thats up to you to decide.

A different speaker will change the tone, for better or worse depends entirely on the speaker itself and the cabinet it is in, but in reality the difference isn't going to be significant, the money spent to upgrade it would be better put towards a new amp.
#24
Quote by Eppicurt
Why are you comparing guitar amps to things that play movies


I didn't. This twat did...

Quote by souperman08
Would you drop 5 grand on a TV, and then hook up a VCR to it?


I was asking him - like you are asking - why he was comparing a guitar amp to something that play movies. Have you read this thread?

Quote by Eppicurt
Yes an 8" speaker isn't an ideal size for a guitar amp, but it's fine for practice.


So you wouldn't choose to use a Fender Champ with its 6" speaker, except for practice?

Quote by Eppicurt
What have you got against Australia? Ever been?


Nothing, it's a lovely, wild, unspoilt country of outstanding natural beauty, like France. But just like France - which has the French to ruin it all - Australia has Australians, and I've met plenty of those chipy buggers in my time.
#25
Well I wouldn't go gigging with a Champ would I.

Yes I have read this thread. Do you have a brain?

And atleast we don't have ****ed up teeth.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#26
Quote by deano_l
So you wouldn't choose to use a Fender Champ with its 6" speaker, except for practice?

i wouldn't use it even if you bought it for me and gave me a blowjob as well...
#27
Quote by littlephil
Are you mentally deficient? How can you possibly expect someone to quantify something like guitar tones? It is impossible to produce graphs or figures to show why any guitar amp is unsuitable, because it is an entirely subjective matter.

The VT20 is not a particularly great amp, that is a widely accepted opinion held by many experienced guitarists. That doesn't mean its bad. Its a practice amp, it isn't meant to be the best sounding amp ever. You might like its tone, thats up to you to decide.

A different speaker will change the tone, for better or worse depends entirely on the speaker itself and the cabinet it is in, but in reality the difference isn't going to be significant, the money spent to upgrade it would be better put towards a new amp.


I'll ignore your little insult as it's probably your Tourret's kicking in.

Now we are getting to the heart of the matter. It is merely your opinion that my amp isn't any good. Of course it is a practice amp. That's why I bought it. I don't gig, and never will. It might come as a surprise, but not everyone wants to be a professional musician. I like to play around getting lots and lots of different tones. Why would I need anything bigger or "better"?

Name for me please a "better" (and define better) amp that meets these criteria...

1) < £150
2) Has a power attenuator to reduce the sound to a very low level because that's what I play at.
3) Can simulate numerous amp tones (I don't want one, I want to play around with many)
4) Will allow the Variax models to "sing" through like you all want"

What is there that meets those requirements?
#29
Hey guys let's be fair.

The VT20+ does have a 12ax7 in it. He knows what he's talking about.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#30
Quote by Eppicurt
Well I wouldn't go gigging with a Champ would I.

Yes I have read this thread. Do you have a brain?

And atleast we don't have ****ed up teeth.


1) I don't gig.

2) But not very well apparantly. Yes I have a brain. That's why I didn't make an elementary mistake by attributing someones quote to someone else.

3) Well fair point. You do have sex with sheep though. And I can visit a dentist.
#31
Quote by deano_l
I was going to insult you right back, but then I noticed you were from the colonies, so I've had to take some time choosing small words. Apologies therefore for the delay...

... my, aren't we quite the little nitro and valves snob! My guess is that you have some little Hondo guitar and amp package and like to pretend that you have some vintage gear for the kudos, so you can sit at the cool kids table. If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all. Isn't that what our fathers taught us? Then again, being an Aussie, your father would better be described as "some soldiers!"

and this was quite unneccessary....

Quote by deano_l
I'll ignore your little insult as it's probably your Tourret's kicking in.

also unnecessary.

and power attenuators are meant to take the tone of your amp at 6 or 7 and bring it down to 5. you're not going to get the tone of your amp at cranked volumes down to a whisper volume. it just doesn't work that way, mate. just get an amp with a master volume and turn it down. it'll sound the same, i promise you.
#32
Quote by Eppicurt
Hey guys let's be fair.

The VT20+ does have a 12ax7 in it. He knows what he's talking about.


Is that the best you have left? Seriously? Because I've better things to do than sit in on a car crash.
#33
Quote by deano_l
1) I don't gig.

2) But not very well apparantly. Yes I have a brain. That's why I didn't make an elementary mistake by attributing someones quote to someone else.

3) Well fair point. You do have sex with sheep though. And I can visit a dentist.

You're thinking of New Zealand.

Still unaware that we're completely derailing his thread.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#34
If you don't gig, don't plan to ever gig and are happy with your current amp, why are you even thinking of getting a new one? That would be a waste of money. As a practice amp, which you're using it for, the VT20 is fine as I've said all along.

I think you need to consider what you actually want rather than asking random people on forums about changing speakers and upgrading your amp when you've said you're happy with your current amp anyway.
#35
Quote by littlephil
If you don't gig, don't plan to ever gig and are happy with your current amp, why are you even thinking of getting a new one? That would be a waste of money. As a practice amp, which you're using it for, the VT20 is fine as I've said all along.

I think you need to consider what you actually want rather than asking random people on forums about changing speakers and upgrading your amp when you've said you're happy with your current amp anyway.

+1

If no one else has to hear your sound, why do you care? If you like it then keep it the way it is. We've stated it's not worth the cash to upgrade it on your amp and that's the truth. Pointless upgrades aren't really upgrades, they're just going to hinder you when you want something of good quality.

And don't plan on not ever gigging, you don't know that yet.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#36
Quote by NakedInTheRain
and this was quite unneccessary....


also unnecessary.

and power attenuators are meant to take the tone of your amp at 6 or 7 and bring it down to 5. you're not going to get the tone of your amp at cranked volumes down to a whisper volume. it just doesn't work that way, mate. just get an amp with a master volume and turn it down. it'll sound the same, i promise you.


It was neccesasary, as they started with the insults first. I will respond in kind. They made a personal attack on me so I made one back and upped the ante. Why shouldn't I?

Really? Gosh. I never realised that turning up a Fender Twin's volume to 6 or 7 and then turning the master volume down to 1/4 will keep the sound the same!

Is that really true? It wont suck any tone out or anything with not working the power section? Blimey, I've been wrong all these years.

The Master Volume on the VT+ amps passes the signal through the valve and is part of the modelling stages. The Attenuator is so we can work the valve by having the MV up on 6 or 7 and keep the volume down.
#37
You're really not making anyone here want to help you mate. Cath's comment was playful and good humoured, yours was just plain nasty. There's a difference.
Quote by SimplyBen
That's the advantage of being such a distance from Yianni. I can continue to live my life without fear of stumbling upon his dark terror.


Quote by Toppscore
NakedInTheRain aka "Naked with shriveled pencil sized bacon In The Rain"
#38
Quote by littlephil
If you don't gig, don't plan to ever gig and are happy with your current amp, why are you even thinking of getting a new one? That would be a waste of money. As a practice amp, which you're using it for, the VT20 is fine as I've said all along.

I think you need to consider what you actually want rather than asking random people on forums about changing speakers and upgrading your amp when you've said you're happy with your current amp anyway.


Oh God, another one who can't read. I never said anything about changing my amp. Please read my OP before you make yourself look even sillier.

I'm not going to gig. Or at least I'm not going to plan by purchases around gigging. I don't need to and have no desire to. I have been playing for 30 years and have been on stage as a singer and comedian many, many times. I have no desire to play my guitar on stage.

So my purchases are based around getting equioment that will enable me to be as flexible as possible, so it is modelling all the way. I won't be getting a different amp for there is no point. All I asked was (a) was there any reason for assuming the amp wont work properly with the variax and (b) if so would a new speaker help.

Amid all the insults and assumptions and stupidity from many of you, the answers are...

(a) dunno really, but those of us with valve-based stage amps will say yes anyway
(b) dunno but probably not
#39
Quote by Eppicurt
You're really not making anyone here want to help you mate. Cath's comment was playful and good humoured, yours was just plain nasty. There's a difference.


No it wasn't. His was just as nasty, but just more chippy.
#40
Quote by deano_l
It was neccesasary, as they started with the insults first. I will respond in kind. They made a personal attack on me so I made one back and upped the ante. Why shouldn't I?

ever heard of the expression 'don't ever let anyone get a rise out of you'?

Quote by deano_l
Really? Gosh. I never realised that turning up a Fender Twin's volume to 6 or 7 and then turning the master volume down to 1/4 will keep the sound the same!

well it's about time you realised. learnt that the hard way with my kustom 72 watter. bought a power attenuator, and it sounded the same as turning down the master way low.

Quote by deano_l
Is that really true? It wont suck any tone out or anything with not working the power section? Blimey, I've been wrong all these years.

yeah, it sucks when you find out you've been wrong about something for ages. trust me, i know.

Quote by deano_l
The Master Volume on the VT+ amps passes the signal through the valve and is part of the modelling stages. The Attenuator is so we can work the valve by having the MV up on 6 or 7 and keep the volume down.

dude, i know how a power attenuator works. but i don't think you know how a modelling amp works...
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