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#1
Wiki.

Basically, a car with surveillance technology is left is an area with high crime in order to catch car thieves.

I've always found this technique to be ethically questionable. What do you guys think?
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#2
If someone wants their car to be stolen, is it really theft if someone takes it?
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#4
I'm still unsure how I feel about bait cars. On one hand, you're creating the situation for the crime to happen in the first place. On the other hand, if they're so willing to break into a bait car, they sure as hell won't have a problem with breaking into anyone else's.


What I really hate, though, is bait hookers.


Edit: Not that I'm speaking from experience >.>
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Last edited by StewieSwan at Dec 28, 2011,
#5
Quote by RU Experienced?
Yes.

Let's say I leave an apple on the ground that I want someone to take. Someone takes it. Is that really theft? They might not be aware that it was free to take, but you still left it there for someone to take.

I don't think it's theft and I find their methods questionable.
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#7
I think the laws of entrapment are pretty clear, and yet I don't understand why a cop sitting in the bushes out of sight with a radar gun to catch speeders is considered entrapment, and leaving a bait car out is not.

Breaking the law is breaking the law, though, and if you do it, you should accept the possible consequences before hand or just forget about it altogether.
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#8
Bait hookers bug me too. At least the damn cars don't try to advertise themselves.
#9
It's close but I think it's on the right side of that line...inb4 someone rants on about social inequality.
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#10
Quote by Kensai
Let's say I leave an apple on the ground that I want someone to take. Someone takes it. Is that really theft? They might not be aware that it was free to take, but you still left it there for someone to take.

I don't think it's theft and I find their methods questionable.



Stupid analogy is stupid. An apple is not clearly somebody's property. A car is.
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#11
Quote by Teh Traineez0rz
It's close but I think it's on the right side of that line...inb4 someone rants on about social inequality.

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#12
Quote by StewieSwan
Stupid analogy is stupid. An apple is not clearly somebody's property. A car is.

And that's not stupid. The functional part of his analogy is the reason behind leaving the item, not what the item is.
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#13
Quote by Eastwinn

I've always found this technique to be ethically questionable. What do you guys think?


Don't give a shit, as long as it means there's less thieving cunts out there
Last edited by Våd Hamster at Dec 28, 2011,
#14
Quote by StewieSwan
Stupid analogy is stupid. An apple is not clearly somebody's property. A car is.

An apple that I bought is clearly my property.
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#15
Quote by Kensai
An apple that I bought is clearly my property.



No it's not. Apples occur naturally. Do cars?
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#16
Thought this was going to be about jail bait.


But aren't those unmarked speed camera cars that park up in hidden spots on roads to catch speeders illegal? The law says that all speed cameras must be clearly marked. Probably the same for CCTV and any form of non private surveillance.
#17
Quote by StewieSwan
No it's not. Apples occur naturally. Do cars?

Let's say it's an apple in the least apple dense region on the planet. It didn't come there naturally thus someone left it there.

I feel like you're missing my point on purpose.
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#18
Quote by StewieSwan
No it's not. Apples occur naturally. Do cars?

So if it happens naturally it's not property?

Brb going to steal apples and stuff ollollolol
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#19
I don't agree with it. Deliberately creating the situation for someone to commit a crime is going to induce the crime, I didn't think that was the police's job.
#20
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#21
Quote by Kensai
Let's say I leave an apple on the ground that I want someone to take. Someone takes it. Is that really theft? They might not be aware that it was free to take, but you still left it there for someone to take.

I don't think it's theft and I find their methods questionable.

The intention of the owner is not salient unless we're discussing the ethics of bait car-ing, it's still unquestionably theft.

I think a better analogy would be if I left a phone/iPod on the bench at a bus stop rather than a perishable apple.
#22
Quote by StewieSwan
No it's not. Apples occur naturally. Do cars?


An apple which is

A) Edible, unlike some other forms of apples which are common enough in populated areas to fall from trees (occurring naturally).

B) Not in a store, vendor's cart, basket, crate, barrel, bucket, or other type of vendor stall or shop.

C) Left out in good condition, as most apples which fall from trees onto concrete or asphalt are not left in such good shape.

Seems pretty obviously someone else's to me, really. If I saw a perfectly good apple sitting on a table in the middle of a city, I wouldn't stupidly assume "Hey, that apple obviously occurred naturally." I'd do the rational, logical thing and figure that someone bought or owned it, and left it there.
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#23
Quote by RU Experienced?
The intention of the owner is not salient unless we're discussing the ethics of bait car-ing, it's still unquestionably theft.

I think a better analogy would be if I left a phone/iPod on the bench at a bus stop rather than a perishable apple.

I think you and dewieswan are reading too much into the apple thing. Any property works.
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#24
Quote by Kensai
Let's say it's an apple in the least apple dense region on the planet. It didn't come there naturally thus someone left it there.

I feel like you're missing my point on purpose.



No, I get what you're trying to say. I just don't think the intent of the police is entirely relevant to the actions of the perpetrator. The person doesn't know the car doesn't belong to anyone, and is therefore automatically in the wrong for taking it.

Also, there is such a huge difference between an apple and a car in that a car is sometimes the person's very livelihood or their home. There is no ethical justification for taking a car/stealing from a car that is not specifically yours.
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#25
To me it seems like one of those missions to get "scum of the streets," much like drug enforcement. What that amounts to, in my mind, is prosecuting poor, nonwhite people.

The logic seems to go like this:
1. Scum should be arrested.
2. Anyone who would steal a car is scum.
3. Therefore someone who steals a bait car is scum.
4. Therefore they should be arrested.

But since most people who would steal a car are poor, and poor people are disproportionately nonwhite, then that leaves me to question the motivations behind removing "scum."

But, if you argue that it's catching people who would steal a car full stop, then how is that different than thought crime?

Quote by Teh Traineez0rz
inb4 someone rants on about social inequality.
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#26
Quote by StewieSwan
No, I get what you're trying to say. I just don't think the intent of the police is entirely relevant to the actions of the perpetrator. The person doesn't know the car doesn't belong to anyone, and is therefore automatically in the wrong for taking it.

Also, there is such a huge difference between an apple and a car in that a car is sometimes the person's very livelihood or their home. There is no ethical justification for taking a car/stealing from a car that is not specifically yours.

We're not discussing if car theft is right or not. I don't think it is.

But are the police methods justifiable?
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#27
Quote by Kensai
We're not discussing if car theft is right or not. I don't think it is.

But are the police methods justifiable?



Said in my first post I'm not sure. It's an issue I've never been able to come to a sound conclusion on.
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#28
Quote by Kensai

But are the police methods justifiable?


Why isn't it?

Schrödingers car theft


Now that I think about it, it does smell like a slippery slope to a 'pushing people to break the law' scenario.
Last edited by Våd Hamster at Dec 28, 2011,
#29
It's borderline entrapment, but as long as it doesn't make some do something they usually wouldn't do it's not. So considering had it been any other car in the same situation those people would have stolen it anyway, so the police can do it.

For me I'd rather have those people stealing bait cars rather than other people's cars.


[EDIT] Also Kensai if you have some sort of legal proof that the apple belonged to you then it would be theft and the same thing as stealing a car.
Last edited by peaches58` at Dec 28, 2011,
#30
How? It's a car that's there, if they don't break into that car, they will just find another car to break into. It's just your car is rigged to catch their stupid self. I don't even see the argument here. Plus, they stole a car, regardless of weather or not it's rigged, and stealing is against the law. Rigging your car with surveillance and remote shutdown is not against the law, heck ON STAR people!
#31
It makes it easier to catch people who are fully aware of what they are doing, stealing a car. It then prevents them from stealing cars in the near future.

How is this bad? It's an effective and safe(r) way of catching thieves
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#32
its not entrapment because the car cant say "hey, im a bait car"

usually when people want to give stuff away for free, they leave a sign that reads free on it
oh and you cant just get a free car, there would at least have to be a transfer of title


though i dont agree with bait cars
#33
Quote by vicarious46
It makes it easier to catch people who are fully aware of what they are doing, stealing a car. It then prevents them from stealing cars in the near future.

How is this bad? It's an effective and safe(r) way of catching thieves


The argument for it being bad is that they're being induced into committing the crime under the grounds that they'll commit it otherwise. AKA entrapment.
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#34
I think the gray area comes into the picture when the police go further than just leaving a car somewhere and do things like call attention to it, leave the door ajar or the keys obviously in the ignition or things like that. But if none of that happens, if they simply leave a car unlocked somewhere without calling any special attention to it, where is the ethical issue? It's just like any other car that someone might break into or steal, except the police are watching it. What's unethical about that?
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#35
Quote by Eastwinn
The argument for it being bad is that they're being induced into committing the crime under the grounds that they'll commit it otherwise. AKA entrapment.



It's not entrapment, see legal definition below...

A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the Government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.
#36
If theres somebody coming over to where I live (as in not a friend, maybe an electrician or something), I don't leave 20 dollars on the table in plain sight tempting the dude. It's wrong to take the 20, but equally wrong to tempt him imo.

Same with the cars.
#37
Quote by peaches58`
It's not entrapment, see legal definition below...


Right, but some argue that it does not fit the bolded clause. Further some would argue that the bolded clause is also unjust.

I do not argue that however, because I'm currently on the fence.
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#38
Quote by High&Mighty
If theres somebody coming over to where I live (as in not a friend, maybe an electrician or something), I don't leave 20 dollars on the table in plain sight tempting the dude. It's wrong to take the 20, but equally wrong to tempt him imo.

Same with the cars.


What about your TV, or laptop? Those are in the open, he can just as easily take those. Or an Ipod, or phone. It can apply to anything that can be taken. It's a flawed argument. And cars are not the same because cars are 2 tons of steel that cost a crap tone of money, and are a 2 ton battering ram on 4 wheels that can kill someone.
#39
Quote by High&Mighty
If theres somebody coming over to where I live (as in not a friend, maybe an electrician or something), I don't leave 20 dollars on the table in plain sight tempting the dude. It's wrong to take the 20, but equally wrong to tempt him imo.

Same with the cars.

That's not a good analogy either. People don't leave twenty dollar bills in parking lots, they leave their cars. Yeah, you can just not leave that twenty on the table and put it in your wallet instead; you can't shove your car into your pocket and then stroll into the grocery store.


EDIT: I'm on the same side of an argument as ethan_hanus. What is happening.
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Last edited by GodofCheesecake at Dec 28, 2011,
#40
Quote by Eastwinn
Right, but some argue that it does not fit the bolded clause. Further some would argue that the bolded clause is also unjust.

I do not argue that however, because I'm currently on the fence.



We had a big discussion about this in my CJ class. We all came to the consensus that it would hold up in a court of law, but probably shouldn't be recorded and put on t.v.

A lot of us were on the fence as well.
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