Page 4 of 169
#121
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
Sing me to sleep.
#122
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Yeah, agreed, that's the main similarity, the overall theme of a struggle, but there are several similar plot points too.
Take Darth Vader's attempt to tempt Luke Skywalker to join him for example, quite similar to the tempting of Jesus by Satan. Luke is pretty much written as a Messiah figure, a figure of hope for the future.

That's a pretty good point. It's hard to write an epic struggle like that and not mirror the Bible though. It's a decent story. They should definitely do a film of it so we can all say the book was better.
#123
Quote by aeroslash09
I'm willfully ignorant

That's a more concise way to put it.
In my heart I'm with you

every night
#124
Quote by captaincrunk
That's a pretty good point. It's hard to write an epic struggle like that and not mirror the Bible though. It's a decent story.
Agreed.
Quote by captaincrunk
They should definitely do a film of it so we can all say the book was better.




Quote by aeroslash09
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.

Unless of course creationism was caused by an extra-dimensional alien instead of a god.
By 'God' are you referring to the Abrahamic god or any of the various gods of other cultures that also have creation myths? It's worth remembering that God may exist, but it may not be the 'God' that you were expecting.
Quote by aeroslash09
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.

Unless of course you manage to evolve the mental capacity to understand it and be comfortable with it.
Quote by aeroslash09
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Unless he doesn't... in which case, you'd be wrong.
#125
Quote by captaincrunk
The study of philosophy is nurturing to the curious mind and creates an environment conducive to analytical reasoning.


All well and understood, but analytical reasoning can lead to a flawed...worldview for example.

Results people! Results!
#126
Quote by WhiskeyFace
Can you elaborate on the last part?


I'm not sure I can break that down much further. The essence of freewill. The only freedom you really have: to hold an opinion. If that opinion is not conductive with reality, we are often punished for it. If that opinion manifests itself into action.
#128
Quote by aeroslash09
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.


Just to add to what Slacker said; Evolution has nothing to do with the initial creation of life. It's just an explanation of how we got from initial life to where we are now. Even if evolution was proven false, it wouldn't mean dick to the argument that God exists.

I don't even know why Evolution gets attacked so vehemently. Only reason I can think of is that "Abiogenesis" doesn't look as pretty when accompanied by "..is a lie" on Fox News.
#130
Quote by captaincrunk
It really was the dumbest thing I had ever heard. And you've yet to address it.

...what I said wasn't stupid. It is true. You said so yourself. Nothing has meaning outside the human world. How is that stupid?
#132
Quote by aeroslash09
I was taking the piss out of theology

Yeah. Theology is totally that simple and logically unsound. It's not like any of the Christian theologians are also some of the most important and influential philosophers in history.
#133
Quote by crimsonblood12
Yeah. Theology is totally that simple and logically unsound. It's not like any of the Christian theologians are also some of the most important and influential philosophers in history.

Names & Links, please.


Gozd in gora poj,
silen ženimo hrup,
uboga gmajna, le vpup, le vkup,
le vkup, le vkup z menoj,
staro pravdo v mrak tulimo,
da se pretulimo skozi to zimo
#134
^Not theologians, but Descartes and Newton were pretty devout Christians.

Quote by SlackerBabbath
If you're going to read those, I suggest you read the Tanakh first, then read the Christian New Testament, (because the Tanakh basicaly is the Old Testament) then read the Qur'an.

Each one had a certain amount of influence on the next, which is easier to see when they are read in order of release. It's kinda like reading Star Wars from 'Episode I: The Phantom Menace' onwards instead of from 'Episode IV: A New Hope.'

In order of release would be watching Ep IV before Ep I I see what you mean, however I don't have the whole of the TNK (I think there are other books in it not included in the Old Testament), nor do i have the Talmud, so I figure since i already have a Bible, it will be fine, and it has the Old Testament so I am getting the gist of the TNK
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#136
Quote by WhiskeyFace
Apparently it's inaccurate and not that objective, which is something Russell admitted to himself. I think it's in that where he just takes the piss out of Nietzsche.


Yeah it's not great. His section on Marx is awful an I've heard that his coverage of Hegel equally so.
Quote by Nosferatu Man

T-shirts are a sign of degeneration and decline.
#137
Right so I'm about to dive in and start reading The Republic by Plato.
I'm actually pretty excited about learning something that's not music related. I'll probably use this thread to keep tabs on what I've read so far, my thoughts about it, and ask for your input.
Neo Evil11
Quote by jambi_mantra
They let black people on Fox now?

They also let white people into the KFC and the NBA now.
#138
Quote by Niiko
Right so I'm about to dive in and start reading The Republic by Plato.
I'm actually pretty excited about learning something that's not music related. I'll probably use this thread to keep tabs on what I've read so far, my thoughts about it, and ask for your input.

Skip anything Plato says about musicians or actors and you'll be good.
Quote by lilboisX3
All well and understood, but analytical reasoning can lead to a flawed...worldview for example.

Results people! Results!

There's is nothing about analytical reasoning itself that would lead to bad results.
Quote by BDR_23
...what I said wasn't stupid. It is true. You said so yourself. Nothing has meaning outside the human world. How is that stupid?

What's ****ing retarded is trying to apply the word meaning to anything outside the human experience. ****ing retarded, I say.
#139
Quote by captaincrunk
What's ****ing retarded is trying to apply the word meaning to anything outside the human experience. ****ing retarded, I say.


I wasn't applying it to anything outside the human experience. You have your head up your ass.
#140
Quote by captaincrunk

There's is nothing about analytical reasoning itself that would lead to bad results.


A hammer may be used to build a house or cause grievous injury. It's not the fault of the tool, only it's wielder.
Last edited by lilboisX3 at Dec 30, 2011,
#141
Quote by lilboisX3
A hammer may be used to build a house or cause grievous injury. It's not the fault of the tool, only it's wielder.

And in this analogy, analytical reasoning is a tool. So, do what you will with that.
#142
Quote by BDR_23
I wasn't applying it to anything outside the human experience. You have your head up your ass.

You implied that someone else does. You don't know what the **** you're talking about here or probably anywhere.
#143
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#144
Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55

In order of release would be watching Ep IV before Ep I I see what you mean, however I don't have the whole of the TNK (I think there are other books in it not included in the Old Testament), nor do i have the Talmud, so I figure since i already have a Bible, it will be fine, and it has the Old Testament so I am getting the gist of the TNK

There ya go.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

Pretty much any holy text is available to read online.

Oh, and don't bother with the NIV, it has some woefully inaccurate translations in it, read 'Young's Literal' instead, also available online.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=YLT

Infact that last link to Biblegateway.com is a valuable resource because it has pretty much any version of the Christian Bible that you can think of, so it's useful for comparing different translations
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Dec 31, 2011,
#145
@Slacker- When I was studying theology, our professors recommended NRSV as the best alternative to reading the original text. Just food for thought, I guess.


Quote by lilboisX3
All well and understood, but analytical reasoning can lead to a flawed...worldview for example.

Results people! Results!


You're taking utilitarianism to its logical extreme, which is itself illogical. Even Mill recognized that you had to strike a balance between achieving moral results and ensuring liberty.


On the topic of the Bible: Anybody looked at the JPS study bible translation of the Hebrew Bible? I had to use it at uni a few years ago, and I dusted it off recently to reread Daniel (my favorite book of the Bible, natch). It's got fantastic footnotes, and does a pretty decent job of tracing the J, E, P, and D strains throughout.

Quote by Pat_s1t
I remember Das_Skittles made me rage hard.

Quote by WCPhils
I can't stand Das_Skittles everything he says makes me mad.

Quote by due 07
Skittles is the shit you cuntles. Slob on his knob.

My Band Youtube Channel Last.fm
Last edited by Das_Skittles at Dec 31, 2011,
#146
The utilitarian perspective goes a long way towards a happy life lived, but you have to exercise it in moderation, as you should be doing with everything else anyway.
Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
#147
Quote by darkstar2466
The utilitarian perspective goes a long way towards a happy life lived, but you have to exercise it in moderation, as you should be doing with everything else anyway.


Exactly. There's still the whole bit where it's basically impossible to foresee every result of a given action, which limits one's ability to make a utilitarian argument for any action until after that action has been performed.

Quote by Pat_s1t
I remember Das_Skittles made me rage hard.

Quote by WCPhils
I can't stand Das_Skittles everything he says makes me mad.

Quote by due 07
Skittles is the shit you cuntles. Slob on his knob.

My Band Youtube Channel Last.fm
#148
Quote by Das_Skittles
@Slacker- When I was studying theology, our professors recommended NRSV as the best alternative to reading the original text. Just food for thought, I guess.


Yeah agreed, it is an accurate alternative.
#149
Quote by Das_Skittles
Exactly. There's still the whole bit where it's basically impossible to foresee every result of a given action, which limits one's ability to make a utilitarian argument for any action until after that action has been performed.


That's the drawing line between being a utilitarian and a realist. Under the former, you are guessing the best choice of action to increase average utility as much as possible, but you don't know the final balance of individual utilities until past the outcome. The latter, you just accept the cold, calculated decisions, their surely foreseeable and predictable consequences, and your actions to those consequences, ad infinitum.

And that's why I say you have to achieve a good balance between the two to be the most useful, most of the time.

Efficiency!
Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
#150
Yes! In before a thick and impenetrable discussion I would have to go 10 pages back to catch up on!

Anyway, who likes Albert Camus? I just read The Stranger, what should I get next?
Quote by Ian_the_fox
You're not girly enough of a boy for me, and you're not man enough to take the top. So like, sorry bitch but you ain't mine! Sorry.
#151
Quote by darkstar2466
That's the drawing line between being a utilitarian and a realist. Under the former, you are guessing the best choice of action to increase average utility as much as possible, but you don't know the final balance of individual utilities until past the outcome. The latter, you just accept the cold, calculated decisions, their surely foreseeable and predictable consequences, and your actions to those consequences, ad infinitum.

And that's why I say you have to achieve a good balance between the two to be the most useful, most of the time.

Efficiency!


I agree: I tend to reject strict adherence to any sort of dogma. My personal philosophy is a nasty amalgam of concepts proposed by about a dozen thinkers, most of whom disagree with each other. Taking the best concepts and making them compatible is easier than, for example, taking everything Mill says as inerrant truth.

But in the interest of discussion, why efficiency? I mean, there are many ways to measure the "worth" of an action.

Quote by Pat_s1t
I remember Das_Skittles made me rage hard.

Quote by WCPhils
I can't stand Das_Skittles everything he says makes me mad.

Quote by due 07
Skittles is the shit you cuntles. Slob on his knob.

My Band Youtube Channel Last.fm
#152
Yep, many ways to measure it. But that's exactly the word I want, because it describes what the balance between managing any given situation should be to make it optimal, a mix of utilitarianism and realism. I'm more or less a perfectionist, so a perfectly put together thing is optimal to me. Efficiency is to solve the situation in the path of least resistance, most average utility, and at a good speed while accepting the worst case scenario and compensating for it like a realist.
Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
Last edited by darkstar2466 at Dec 31, 2011,
#153
I have a small matter than I've been thinking on for a while, and I haven't yet found a very good answer, so I'll put it forward to the more enlightened fellows here. The basic starting point for this thought is that from what every Christian I've discussed theological matters with has told me, if one doesn't worship God, one will go to hell, regardless of how they have otherwise lived.

It seems to me then, that in regards to one's eternal soul, there is absolutely no point to being virtuous if one doesn't worship God. With the "traditional" pit of fire and torment model of Hell, if one is already going there for not worshipping God, then one might as well just rape, torture, and murder everyone one meets, for the eternal soul will still be treated the same as if they instead lived the most virtuous life.

Of course, using Dante's model of Hell I can see logic behind still living a virtuous life, as one would possibly only make it as far as the 6th circle if they lived a virtuous life, whereas there are greater sins that carry a worse punishment. If, however, one had been part of the church and left, I think that could well be treated as betrayal, and thus one would be condemned to the worst set of punishments anyway, which again comes back to the problem.

So as one who was baptised into the Anglican church as a baby, and has since left, I can't really see a reason why, in regards to my eternal soul from a Christian perspective, I should a live a virtuous life.

And related somewhat, how is such a god who would demand such things as a man to kill his son, and who would judge people solely on whether they are in his servitude, and not upon how they lived a god one would find worthy of the utmost of respect and worship?
Ka pu te ruha ka hao te rangatahi.
#154
Quote by Taydr
I have a small matter than I've been thinking on for a while, and I haven't yet found a very good answer, so I'll put it forward to the more enlightened fellows here. The basic starting point for this thought is that from what every Christian I've discussed theological matters with has told me, if one doesn't worship God, one will go to hell, regardless of how they have otherwise lived.

The problem there is that it's impossible to know which, if any, of the many different notions of deities that there have been is the correct one to worship and what form that worship should take.

The word 'God', although it is used as a name for a deity, is actualy a discriptive term that covers all deities. The Abrahamic 'God' does have a proper name, which is 'Yahweh', but before that (according to Exodus 6.2–3) he was apparently known as something else, 'El Shaddai'. But El Shaddai was a Canaanite polytheistic god with a mother goddess called 'Asherah' for a wife. Quite a different figure to the monotheistic deity that would later be developed from him. We also know it's the same deity because of ancient 8th century BC inscriptions that mention 'Yahweh' as having the same mother goddess wife.

So how exactly is one supposed to worship Yahweh? As a monotheistic god as modern Judaism, Christianity and Islam does or as the polytheistic god that he was originaly considered to be?
Quote by Taydr

It seems to me then, that in regards to one's eternal soul, there is absolutely no point to being virtuous if one doesn't worship God. With the "traditional" pit of fire and torment model of Hell, if one is already going there for not worshipping God, then one might as well just rape, torture, and murder everyone one meets, for the eternal soul will still be treated the same as if they instead lived the most virtuous life.

Of course, using Dante's model of Hell I can see logic behind still living a virtuous life, as one would possibly only make it as far as the 6th circle if they lived a virtuous life, whereas there are greater sins that carry a worse punishment. If, however, one had been part of the church and left, I think that could well be treated as betrayal, and thus one would be condemned to the worst set of punishments anyway, which again comes back to the problem.

So as one who was baptised into the Anglican church as a baby, and has since left, I can't really see a reason why, in regards to my eternal soul from a Christian perspective, I should a live a virtuous life.

And related somewhat, how is such a god who would demand such things as a man to kill his son, and who would judge people solely on whether they are in his servitude, and not upon how they lived a god one would find worthy of the utmost of respect and worship?


It's interesting to consider that a person who believes in God and spends their lives doing good deeds will, to some degree, be doing those good deeds in an attempt to please their God and gain a reward in the afterlife, which we can consider as selfish reasoning, yet an atheist who spends their life doing good deeds does so without seeking any such personal reward (because he doesn't believe such a reward even exists) and so we can consider their actions as un-selfish.

So, if God exists, who would he reward, the selfish or the unselfish?
#155
Usually I think many atheists are too quick to play the prejudice card (outside of notable examples i.e. US Presidency) but this research showing that atheists are seen to be less trustworthy than believers is interesting.

Does the thread think atheists face real and everyday prejudice for their beliefs (as far as those beliefs are ever made known)?
Quote by Nosferatu Man

T-shirts are a sign of degeneration and decline.
#156
Quote by leeb rocks
Usually I think many atheists are too quick to play the prejudice card (outside of notable examples i.e. US Presidency) but this research showing that atheists are seen to be less trustworthy than believers is interesting.

Does the thread think atheists face real and everyday prejudice for their beliefs (as far as those beliefs are ever made known)?


Can't say I've ever heard of it or experienced it in the UK. However, I can imagine it being a very real problem in more fundamentally religious countries. Probably most likely in trying to find work when competing against other religious people to work in a company run by religious people.

Can't think of any other situations it would occur but I've only just woke up.
#157
Quote by Taydr
I have a small matter than I've been thinking on for a while, and I haven't yet found a very good answer, so I'll put it forward to the more enlightened fellows here. The basic starting point for this thought is that from what every Christian I've discussed theological matters with has told me, if one doesn't worship God, one will go to hell, regardless of how they have otherwise lived.
?

The Roman Catholic Church does not teach this.
#158
Quote by crimsonblood12
The Roman Catholic Church does not teach this.


Perhaps he's talking about other Christians. Or even if they were Catholics, they don't follow what their Church says 100%.
#160
Quote by captaincrunk
And in this analogy, analytical reasoning is a tool.


Ah good, we see eye to eye. Finally.