#1
I've played a lot of shows but found myself dropping my highs an treble much more during band practice and live compared to me at home dicking around.

Does anyone have any pointers for basic principles? I play metal(dur who doesnt anymore?).
#2
I've never found two rooms where I was happy with the same eq.

I have no idea about any general principles but it's a great idea to have at least yourself and someone else in different parts of the room when deciding on a sound.
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#3
Quote by gilly_90
I've never found two rooms where I was happy with the same eq.

I have no idea about any general principles but it's a great idea to have at least yourself and someone else in different parts of the room when deciding on a sound.


I've been trying that lately. Something sounds GREAT right in front of an amp but trash across the venue. Obviously everyone has a different ear for tone and the P.A. always makes a huge difference.
#4
Yeah, don't just arbitrarily drop the highs and mids, because when you're standing near the amp, the sound you're hearing is angling up, and that affects what you hear (mostly highs and mids).

Ideally, I sit on the floor at about a 90 degree angle from the middle of the amp and play, obviously not right next to the amp or I'd be deaf Then adjust based on what I hear there, but yeah, every room's gonna be different than the last.
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#5
Quote by strat0blaster
Yeah, don't just arbitrarily drop the highs and mids, because when you're standing near the amp, the sound you're hearing is angling up, and that affects what you hear (mostly highs and mids).

Ideally, I sit on the floor at about a 90 degree angle from the middle of the amp and play, obviously not right next to the amp or I'd be deaf Then adjust based on what I hear there, but yeah, every room's gonna be different than the last.


I'll try that.

BTW, never drop mids. EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
#6
You should be trying to get as little spill from your on-stage sound into FOH as possible. FOH is the PA's job. How FOH sounds is down to how the sound guy sets up the channel and how well you mike the amp.
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#7
Quote by Cathbard
You should be trying to get as little spill from your on-stage sound into FOH as possible. FOH is the PA's job. How FOH sounds is down to how the sound guy sets up the channel and how well you mike the amp.


I'm actually starting to believe they're putting the mic WAAAAAAAY too close to my amp at the main venue I play at. It's basically touching my grill and always comes out overly shrill even when I've deliberately set it up to not be like that.
#8
I never put the mic closer than about 8 inches. Closer than that, and the sound has no chance to open up before hitting the mic, and it sounds sterile, in my experience.
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#9
Quote by strat0blaster
I never put the mic closer than about 8 inches. Closer than that, and the sound has no chance to open up before hitting the mic, and it sounds sterile, in my experience.

I agree with this. I don't want flawless studio tone live; I want a hi-fi representation of the way the stage sounds.

That said dude, your tone seeming too shrill is probably because you're hearing it through monitors. Through a big bassy FOH PA it's probably much bigger and fuller.
The other reason is that most engineers mic right in the centre of the speaker cone. I personally hate this, and mic my amp roughly hallway between the centre and edge of the driver, pointed in slightly towards the centre.
#10
Quote by kyle62
I agree with this. I don't want flawless studio tone live; I want a hi-fi representation of the way the stage sounds.

That said dude, your tone seeming too shrill is probably because you're hearing it through monitors. Through a big bassy FOH PA it's probably much bigger and fuller.
The other reason is that most engineers mic right in the centre of the speaker cone. I personally hate this, and mic my amp roughly hallway between the centre and edge of the driver, pointed in slightly towards the centre.


So basically move the mic if need be. I get a hard time and a "You don't think I know what I'm doing?" comment when I move the mic lul
#12
Quote by El Roncho Grand
So basically move the mic if need be. I get a hard time and a "You don't think I know what I'm doing?" comment when I move the mic lul

Yup, some engineers hate it! Usually the snobby W*nkers who don't know who to do anything except a generic SUPER BASS!!1 mix with a kick drum that gives people stomach cramps and no dynamics whatsoever.

PS: Always offer the house engineer a pint at the beginning of the night if you're in unfamiliar territory, and you'll go a long way.
#13
Quote by kyle62
Yup, some engineers hate it! Usually the snobby W*nkers who don't know who to do anything except a generic SUPER BASS!!1 mix with a kick drum that gives people stomach cramps and no dynamics whatsoever.

PS: Always offer the house engineer a pint at the beginning of the night if you're in unfamiliar territory, and you'll go a long way.


Much appreciated. I've played so many shows and not really taken the mic into my on hands. I feel like a total douche waiting so long knowing that could be a main issue.
#14
You're better off hanging the mike vertically in front of the amp facing the floor than pointing it directly at the centre of the speaker. Neither is optimal. pinting it at the centre of the cone is dumb. People often stick a diffuser in front of the dead centre of the cone to cut back that particular part back of the sound. Sticking the mike there is like an anti-diffuser.
The best bet is to use a small stand and point the mike at the cone off-centre and even try angling the mic a bit so it isn't perpendicular to the cab - don't go overboard, just a few degrees.
What I do is, at sound check, walk out in front of the stage so I can actually hear what it sounds like off the PA. You have to remember, a lot of sound guys are half deaf. You gotta check on their work. They are working for you, not the other way around. They need you more than you need them. Assert your authority (without being a dick). It's your gig, not his.
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#15
Quote by Cathbard
You're better off hanging the mike vertically in front of the amp facing the floor than pointing it directly at the centre of the speaker. Neither is optimal. pinting it at the centre of the cone is dumb. People often stick a diffuser in front of the dead centre of the cone to cut back that particular part back of the sound. Sticking the mike there is like an anti-diffuser.
The best bet is to use a small stand and point the mike at the cone off-centre and even try angling the mic a bit so it isn't perpendicular to the cab - don't go overboard, just a few degrees.
What I do is, at sound check, walk out in front of the stage so I can actually hear what it sounds like off the PA. You have to remember, a lot of sound guys are half deaf. You gotta check on their work. They are working for you, not the other way around. They need you more than you need them. Assert your authority (without being a dick). It's your gig, not his.


That's usually my problem. I AM a dick when people **** with my sound but I get tired of arguing with a sound guy because he went to school for it but is half in the bag.
#16
A friend of mine went to "school" to learn audio engineering (yeah right. It's "engineering" in the same way that a garbo is a "sanitation engineer" ). He learnt more from me he reckoned.
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#17
Quote by El Roncho Grand
I've played a lot of shows but found myself dropping my highs an treble much more during band practice and live compared to me at home dicking around.

Does anyone have any pointers for basic principles? I play metal(dur who doesnt anymore?).


Fletcher Munson effect. At lower levels you tend to add more bass and highs. At higher levels, we're more sensitive to the highs and lows so we turn them down.

As far as mic'ing, I really prefer the edge of the cone, and close up. sounds more natural that way.
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#18
What.


Putting the mic right up against the grille is called close miccing, and is the best way to pick up transience. As Cath mentioned, one way is to hang off the top of the amp facing down. It really depends on the mic. The most common approach is to place a 57 halfway between the center and edge of the cone.

Each room is going to sound different, a good approach is to have someone play, while you walk out into the venue hall. Or buy a long cable. Or a wireless system. etc.

That said, it is live playing. Save your knob twiddling for the studio. Get a decent sound and let the FOH guy deal with the rest. I spend far more time working on my monitor/in ear mix.
#19
i probably played without a mic stand and just hung the mic from the top of the cab for 20 years or more. It worked fine. At most I had to tweak the EQ on the desk a bit but you have to do that to compensate for the room and how many people are in it anyway. Even if you get it perfect at sound check, it's going to have to be tweaked once the room fills with people anyway.
You guys are chasing phantoms. Even if you point it at the centre of the speaker it can be compensated for by the desk anyway. Wtf do you think this is? A studio recording that's going to be listened to through a $10,000 hifi? You are playing to a crowd of drunks and producing your sound with a PA system, get over it.

Now to address the real issues involved with live sound and this is something you can sort out in rehearsal.
When playing by yourself you are responsible for every frequency you can hear. When playing with others your sound has to compliment each other.
For example. Tony Iommi sounds like he uses bucketloads of bass but he doesn't. Geezers bass is what makes it sound so bassy.
The trick is to not step on each other's toes sonically and work as a team. It is not possible to dial in your amp properly for a band situation without hearing it in the band environment. You simply need to get your shit together as a band. Don't expect what sounds good on your own to sound right once the other musos start playing. It's a team effort.
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Yamaha SBG500
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Randall RM100 & RM20
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Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
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Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


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Last edited by Cathbard at Jan 1, 2012,
#20
Quote by Cathbard
i probably played without a mic stand and just hung the mic from the top of the cab for 20 years or more. It worked fine. At most I had to tweak the EQ on the desk a bit but you have to do that to compensate for the room and how many people are in it anyway. Even if you get it perfect at sound check, it's going to have to be tweaked once the room fills with people anyway.
You guys are chasing phantoms. Even if you point it at the centre of the speaker it can be compensated for by the desk anyway. Wtf do you think this is? A studio recording that's going to be listened to through a $10,000 hifi? You are playing to a crowd of drunks and producing your sound with a PA system, get over it.

Now to address the real issues involved with live sound and this is something you can sort out in rehearsal.
When playing by yourself you are responsible for every frequency you can hear. When playing with others your sound has to compliment each other.
For example. Tony Iommi sounds like he uses bucketloads of bass but he doesn't. Geezers bass is what makes it sound so bassy.
The trick is to not step on each other's toes sonically and work as a team. It is not possible to dial in your amp properly for a band situation without hearing it in the band environment. You simply need to get your shit together as a band. Don't expect what sounds good on your own to sound right once the other musos start playing. It's a team effort.


My "shit" is together. As for hanging a mic, lul.
#21
^Nobody ever TRUELY has their shit together.
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#23
If you are pumping serious air hanging a mic works pretty damn well actually. You can get the mic nice and close without overdriving it. One thing you don't get is vibration up the mic stand which also becomes a problem when you're really loud.
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Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
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Last edited by Cathbard at Jan 3, 2012,