Poll: Do you believe in intellectual property?
Poll Options
View poll results: Do you believe in intellectual property?
Yess'm
73 67%
Nuh-uh
36 33%
Voters: 109.
Page 1 of 3
#1
The reason behind patents, copyrights, trademarks, and the isolation and "protection" of information. It's simple, Pit, really - you either believe in intellectual property and go along with the regulation and legislation behind it, or you don't and are forced to comply with regulation/legislation (for the most part).

Ima have to go Sagan on you guys, but considering the truth and extent of his statement here,



, I can't understand what motivates man to secure and regulate information to personal benefit, rather than collective benefit, given the fact that all we have is each other and that none of us or our information makes a rat's ass difference outside this rock.

If you believe in intellectual property, why do you support it? What good does it accomplish, other than maintaining an economic leverage of information handed out vs. monetary units received? Are you not happy to have just information with no strings attached, no ownership?

Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
#2
Shut up you socialist. If everyone follows their self-interest, total welfare is maximised with the exception of some market failures.

edit: holy shit, hit the wrong option.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Jan 3, 2012,
#3
I believe that if somebody creates something and wants to make money from said thing, then they should be able to do so. In the world that we live in that requires money to live, I believe human decency calls for respect towards those wishes.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#4
I support it. A good idea is more valuable than anything physical. As anything physical was once just an idea.

Intellectual property = an artists way of living.

Last edited by Zeppelin Addict at Jan 3, 2012,
#5
Quote by Neo Evil11
Shut up you socialist. If everyone follows their self-interest, total welfare is maximised with the exception of some market failures.

edit: holy shit, hit the wrong option.




Who da socialist nao.

Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
#6
Without intellectual property, there's no guarantee for compensation to ones hard work. In fact, you'd probably get none. Without compensation, there is little motivation to achieve great things.
#7
I support it in theory, but i do not support the travesty that the system of laws surrounding it has become.
Quote by yellowfrizbee
What does a girl have to do to get it in the butt thats all I ever wanted from you. Why, Ace? Why? I clean my asshole every night hoping and wishing and it never happens.
Bitches be Crazy.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
#8
Quote by pugachev
Without intellectual property, there's no guarantee for compensation to ones hard work. In fact, you'd probably get none. Without compensation, there is little motivation to achieve great things.


- Food
- Water
- Shelter
- Mating
- Entertainment

If those are taken care of, and you don't need the 'compensation' to fund them, would you still be in favor of IP?
Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
#9
Quote by pugachev
Without intellectual property, there's no guarantee for compensation to ones hard work. In fact, you'd probably get none. Without compensation, there is little motivation to achieve great things.

Spoken like someone too stupid to achieve great things.
#10
Quote by darkstar2466
- Food
- Water
- Shelter
- Mating
- Entertainment

If those are taken care of, and you don't need the 'compensation' to fund them, would you still be in favor of IP?

Yes.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#11
Quote by bradulator
I believe that if somebody creates something and wants to make money from said thing, then they should be able to do so. In the world that we live in that requires money to live, I believe human decency calls for respect towards those wishes.

This.
You dirty piece of shit, you.

Quote by FireFromTheVoid
I smoked weed with my mom once.
It was the weirdest moment of my life, and I`ve been caught with my dick in my hand, by my brother, with a giant close up of a dudes face on the tv.

Twatter
#12
Quote by darkstar2466
- Food
- Water
- Shelter
- Mating
- Entertainment

If those are taken care of, and you don't need the 'compensation' to fund them, would you still be in favor of IP?


Stop dreaming of some utopia. There is no guarantee of any of that. Its only becoming more scarce as time goes on. No one is going to provide your food or shelter for free. Ever.
#13
I ****ing hate adverts on Youtube.


And that's as far into this debate as I'm going to go.
#14
In an ideal world, where money isn't a problem, no.

However, this isn't an ideal world and I'd hate to be losing money for something I created. I don't really mind some using something i've created as long as they tell me they're using it and they give me a share of the profit.

I'm not being greedy, I just think that, given the chance, someone would steal an idea from someone else in a heartbeat. However, if I was someone in a secure position, I wouldn't mind someone using some of my ideas for free, as long as they're using it under my terms.
Breakfast, Breakfast, it's great for us
We eat, we eat, we eat
That frozen meat
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, it can't be beat
#15
I like the idea of IP, but I've begun to question the way we (in the US at least) of gone about it. I came across this video that gives a overview of some problems with US copyright law.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#16
What intellectual property is, is a system by which we can protect the rights of the originator of an idea from misuse and misappropriation of said idea. Without intellectual property rights, there would be no system of indexing and referencing in things like academic works, which makes less well researched works on a subject look just as valid on the surface. If people are not made to index through the intellectual property system, we can never tell what a good source of information is as they are not forced to reference sources correctly. In having the system of patents and intellectual property rights as we do, we uphold the strongest possible standard for intellectual and scientific works and discoveries. It is necessary for this reason, and not because some vague Conservative idea of "Motivation" and "Compensation".

Also, the argument from the size and significance of the world to the universe is fallacious and has nothing to do with the importance of ideas.
#17
Quote by Thrashtastic15
Spoken like someone too stupid to achieve great things.


Care to make a counter argument? Of course not. Canadians...
#18
Quote by pugachev
Stop dreaming of some utopia. There is no guarantee of any of that. Its only becoming more scarce as time goes on. No one is going to provide your food or shelter for free. Ever.


Stop pulling the utopia card. I'm not dreaming - I'm talking about real measures in the real world. No dreams here, boy - you only have work and more work. Don't want to do work? Get the fuck out and stay the fuck out (and die). That's how this world works.

Shelter is tricky trick, but... we can have, with current systems:

- Personal gardens/farms for home/landowners and community gardens/farms for greater population densities. Of course, people are too lazy to ever farm for themselves in the first world. Oh god, the dirt... it might get me dirty EWW.
- Regulation for freshwater so that industry and agriculture don't use the 98% of it and tell us to do our best in conserving the other 2%.
Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
Last edited by darkstar2466 at Jan 3, 2012,
#19
Quote by Acϵ♠
I support it in theory, but i do not support the travesty that the system of laws surrounding it has become.


This
Guitars
LTD EC-1000 vb
Ibanez RG7321

Amp/Modeler
Line 6 POD HD500

Headphones
Audio-Technica ATH-M50
#20
Quote by pugachev
Care to make a counter argument? Of course not. Canadians...

Provide substance and justification for your inane opinion and maybe I'll humour you. Right now it is merely unsubstantiated, lazy crap.
#21
Quote by darkstar2466
Stop pulling the utopia card. I'm not dreaming - I'm talking about real measures in the real world. No dreams here, boy - you only have work and more work. Don't want to do work? Get the fuck out and stay the fuck out (and die). That's how this world works.

Shelter is tricky trick, but... we can have, with current systems:

- Personal gardens/farms for home/landowners and community gardens/farms for greater population densities. Of course, people are too lazy to ever farm for themselves in the first world. Oh god, the dirt... it might get me dirty EWW.
- Regulation for freshwater so that industry and agriculture don't use the 98% of it and tell us to do our best in conserving the other 2%.


Have you ever worked on a farm before? The work you do in your daily life is miniscule in comparison to that back breaking hell. Sure, if I farm my own potatoes and cabbage I can guarantee my own food supply...Until the frost comes in and destroys my crops. Now my family starves. I have no other source of income because I'm spending my entire day feeding pigs and shit. lovely.
#22
Quote by darkstar2466
, I can't understand what motivates man to secure and regulate information to personal benefit, rather than collective benefit, given the fact that all we have is each other and that none of us or our information makes a rat's ass difference outside this rock.

Quite apart from arguments about property specifically, how does this follow at all? Why does being of cosmic insiginificance change wanting to care about our own interests? To be honest you don't even need to look beyond earth to see how statistically small you are. 1 in 7 billion. You live for possibly 80-90 years on an earth than existed for billions. The entire human race, in fact, has only existed for a fraction of the earth's history.

But still... so what? Why does this stop my life being significant to me? Regardless of how small it is in the world, it's the only one I've got and it is my ENTIRE universe.


EDIT: as much as I love a good argument, I'm probably not going to throw myself into this wholeheartedly, but I will just mention my general opinion is yes intellectual property is property and service like any other, and when you provide something people value they should exchange something you value (ie money).
This is of course not to say that current copyright laws etc are good. But there's a difference between corporate greed and proper exchange of services and property.
Last edited by MadClownDisease at Jan 3, 2012,
#23
Quote by Thrashtastic15
Provide substance and justification for your inane opinion and maybe I'll humour you. Right now it is merely unsubstantiated, lazy crap.

People wouldn't be able to make money or get credit for their ideas so they may see no interest in doing it if it doesn't benefit them. That's humans for ya.
#24
Quote by BDR_23
People wouldn't be able to make money or get credit for their ideas so they may see no interest in doing it if it doesn't benefit them. That's humans for ya.


People are curious enough to attempt something new. Did the guy who invented the wheel do it for money? Did he do it for personal glory? Does anybody remember his ****ing name? No, but he was smart and realized the need for a wheel, whether he could get a patent on it or not.
#25
Quote by beadhangingOne
People are curious enough to attempt something new. Did the guy who invented the wheel do it for money? Did he do it for personal glory? Does anybody remember his ****ing name? No, but he was smart and realized the need for a wheel, whether he could get a patent on it or not.

No, but he still created it out of personal need.
#26
Quote by MadClownDisease
No, but he still created it out of personal need.


Well whoop-de-****ing-doo, everything we do is out of personal need, else no one would do anything at all. I'm disputing the money/credit claim.
#27
Quote by beadhangingOne
People are curious enough to attempt something new. Did the guy who invented the wheel do it for money? Did he do it for personal glory? Does anybody remember his ****ing name? No, but he was smart and realized the need for a wheel, whether he could get a patent on it or not.


There are thousands of scientists right now whose job it is to work on a cure for cancer. Noble cause. Now how many of those scientists would continue working without a paycheck?
#28
Quote by beadhangingOne
People are curious enough to attempt something new. Did the guy who invented the wheel do it for money? Did he do it for personal glory? Does anybody remember his ****ing name? No, but he was smart and realized the need for a wheel, whether he could get a patent on it or not.


Yeah but that's for big things where the inventor has " OMG this can benefit everyone in a huge way" moment. I guess it depends on the idea/invention and person.

EDIT: btw, i think copyright laws and shit like that are stupid but credit should be given where its due.
Last edited by BDR_23 at Jan 3, 2012,
#29
If I believed in it, perhaps I would feel bad about the literal ****tons of music, movies, video games, anime, and everything else that i've "pirated."

But I don't
#30
Quote by darkstar2466
The reason behind patents, copyrights, trademarks, and the isolation and "protection" of information.


No, copyright exists to promote creative industries like art, music and film. Patents exist to encourage scientists and researchers to disclose their findings to the public, and trademarks exist so that you know that you're buying a genuine Rolex/Porsche/Gibson. and not some cheap knock off. Although they are certainly similar concepts, it can be potentially misleading to file them all under the rubric of 'intellectual property', because that implies a singular justification for three concepts which actually perform different functions, and further implies that property in ideas is analogous to property in physical goods, which is not the case.

All of which makes this:

It's simple, Pit, really - you either believe in intellectual property and go along with the regulation and legislation behind it, or you don't and are forced to comply with regulation/legislation (for the most part).


A classic example of a false dichotomy.

Quote by NeoEvil111
Shut up you socialist. If everyone follows their self-interest, total welfare is maximised with the exception of some market failures.


Um, there are plenty of libertarian writers who disagree with any form of intellectual property, because the ownership of such rights by certain entities is seen as an artifical monopoly created by the state. Appeals to self-interest are only really effective on an individual level. On a social and political level, competing interest groups exist, each of which should have a perfectly valid claim to have their way on the basis of 'self-interest' (As in the case of copyright law, it's certainly not in the interest of anyone who engages in piracy to have the state clamping down on it by cutting off people's internet access, searching through people's computers or allowing rights holders to sue them for exorbitant amounts of money). If your ethical theory lacks any adequate means of conflict resolution, it is, to be blunt a pretty shit theory.
.
#31
Quote by pugachev
There are thousands of scientists right now whose job it is to work on a cure for cancer. Noble cause. Now how many of those scientists would continue working without a paycheck?


The reason they need money is because it is a means to an end (food/water, shelter, sustenance, etc.). Studies have shown you can only pay people so much to do a task, and past a point, performance actually decreases as a function of task difficulty. Your statement implies the necessity of...well, necessities, not the necessity of money.
#32
The somewhat unfortunate, somewhat helpful thing about thought is it can be manipulated to benefit or detriment. My take on the situation is that a demand to share thought and knowledge is a bit of imposition on freedom. Competition gives drive and motivation for the invention and advancement of many ideas.
#33
Quote by beadhangingOne
The reason they need money is because it is a means to an end (food/water, shelter, sustenance, etc.). Studies have shown you can only pay people so much to do a task, and past a point, performance actually decreases as a function of task difficulty. Your statement implies the necessity of...well, necessities, not the necessity of money.


I disagree, i still don't see most people working for anything if only guaranteed food and shelter. What about saving up for that trip to Europe? That shiny new iPhone, or a big ass TV? How do I achieve these things with only food, water, and shelter? Yes, most people see their job/career as a means to an end. Basic necessities are just that, basics. They yearn for much more than that.

Why would I want to do my job and just have guaranteed food and shelter when I can guarantee that and much more now? That looks like a step back, not a step forward.
#34
Quote by MadClownDisease
Quite apart from arguments about property specifically, how does this follow at all? Why does being of cosmic insiginificance change wanting to care about our own interests? To be honest you don't even need to look beyond earth to see how statistically small you are. 1 in 7 billion. You live for possibly 80-90 years on an earth than existed for billions. The entire human race, in fact, has only existed for a fraction of the earth's history.

But still... so what? Why does this stop my life being significant to me? Regardless of how small it is in the world, it's the only one I've got and it is my ENTIRE universe.


That point speaks for itself in arguing against intellectual property. If you are here for only a short while and you are so insignificant in not only the world, but also the grander cosmos, why would you ever want to own that information? At least as sentient beings, our motivation is to pass on knowledge and wisdom to further generations as part of our evolution. You are curtailing evolutionary progress by putting a price on information, when evolutionary progress is all we have to look forward to...
Quote by denizenz
I'll logic you right in the thyroid.

Art & Lutherie
#35
Quote by Nietsche
Um, there are plenty of libertarian writers who disagree with any form of intellectual property, because the ownership of such rights by certain entities is seen as an artifical monopoly created by the state. Appeals to self-interest are only really effective on an individual level. On a social and political level, competing interest groups exist, each of which should have a perfectly valid claim to have their way on the basis of 'self-interest' (As in the case of copyright law, it's certainly not in the interest of anyone who engages in piracy to have the state clamping down on it by cutting off people's internet access, searching through people's computers or allowing rights holders to sue them for exorbitant amounts of money). If your ethical theory lacks any adequate means of conflict resolution, it is, to be blunt a pretty shit theory.


Nice man. Never said anything about being a libertarian, so your whole argument is waisted time.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#36
Quote by Neo Evil11
Never said anything about being a libertarian, so your whole argument is waisted time.


The point of noting that there are libertarians who don't support 'intellectual property' was to counter your argument that being opposed to intellectual property necessarily had something to do with socialism. It had nothing to do with implying that you yourself were one.
.
#38
Quote by Nietsche
The point of noting that there are libertarians who don't support 'intellectual property' was to counter your argument that being opposed to intellectual property necessarily had something to do with socialism. It had nothing to do with implying that you yourself were one.


I like how you, while trying to act smart, completely miss the joke.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#39
Quote by severed-metal
So was your schooling. Snap.


Shall I just quit now then?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Page 1 of 3