#1
http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

I honestly never knew that something like this could happen by using paypal, and IMO I think that its downright horrible. Destroying an item they knew nothing about because the owner thought it was fake despite being appraised by a luthier? Thats just unreal.

Anybody else know or have stories like this they would like to discuss/share?
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#3
Ridiculous, but they have it outlined in their rules, so if you didn't read them carefully enough, it's your fault.
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#4
I've had really nothing but positive experiences with Paypal and i've used it for atleast 200 transactions.
pinga
#6
Quote by chaos13
Ridiculous, but they have it outlined in their rules, so if you didn't read them carefully enough, it's your fault.


Yea but it had just been appraised at $2,500, surely you can't agree that in this case that clause should have came into effect?
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#8
Quote by dr_shred
Yea but it had just been appraised at $2,500, surely you can't agree that in this case that clause should have came into effect?


To be fair, Paypal isn't obligated to do anything if they specifically state it in their terms of use. Personally in this case, I don't see Paypal being at fault because it's their standard procedure which you can see in their ToS.
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#9
Holy shit, I never noticed that in the terms before. I can understand protecting people against fraud, but this is madness!

I bet the buyer is proud of himself.
#10
lol what an awesome clause. Both parties agreed to the ToS when they activated their accounts.

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#12
having something illegal in a ToS does not make it legal.

Neither Paypal nor the buyer owns the item. What they did was essentially incite criminal damage.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#13
Quote by Lemoninfluence
having something illegal in a ToS does not make it legal.

Neither Paypal nor the buyer owns the item. What they did was essentially incite criminal damage.


It's counterfeit. It's illegal for you to own it in the US, so they ask you to destroy it. You're legally supposed to destroy counterfeit products when you find out they're fake.
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#14
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
It's counterfeit. It's illegal for you to own it in the US, so they ask you to destroy it. You're legally supposed to destroy counterfeit products when you find out they're fake.

Source?

both relating to the fact that it's counterfeit and that there's a legal requirement to destroy it without a court order.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#15
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
It's counterfeit. It's illegal for you to own it in the US, so they ask you to destroy it. You're legally supposed to destroy counterfeit products when you find out they're fake.


There was no proof that it was a fake, and in the article it's said that there's no such thing as a fake since violins are always works of art, which they are. If she gets the luthior who inspected the violin to testify, Pay Pal will most likely lose this case if she's suing.

Plus, the buyer nor pay pal owned the violin, so they had no right to order it's destruction, unless a court ordered it's destruction. It should of been sent back to the owner, and the buyer refunded for his money. Destroying it was just stupid, especially with no proof that it was a fake.
#16
Quote by dr_shred
Yea but it had just been appraised at $2,500, surely you can't agree that in this case that clause should have came into effect?


I don't agree at all. However, it is in their terms of use and is stated clearly. I think it should have been resolved differently, but it was not against any of their rules, and by clicking the "I accept" check box you hold yourself accountable to those rules. Paypal has done nothing wrong, and neither has the buyer. The seller simply wasn't careful enough and didn't read the fine print. I don't hold that against them at all, because there is so much to keep track of there's no way one can remember it reasonably without going through it sentence by sentence, but it's their fault for not being careful enough.
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#17
Quote by chaos13
I don't agree at all. However, it is in their terms of use and is stated clearly. I think it should have been resolved differently, but it was not against any of their rules, and by clicking the "I accept" check box you hold yourself accountable to those rules. Paypal has done nothing wrong, and neither has the buyer. The seller simply wasn't careful enough and didn't read the fine print. I don't hold that against them at all, because there is so much to keep track of there's no way one can remember it reasonably without going through it sentence by sentence, but it's their fault for not being careful enough.


except exercise control over an object belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive the owner of the benefit of that good.

that's pretty much the textbook definition of theft over here.

ToS are not above the law. Unless it can be shown that this violin was seized and destroyed in accordance with anti-counterfeit laws i.e. the correct legal process was followed with sufficient evidence, then both Paypal and the buyer are guilty of destroying somebody else's possessions.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#18
Quote by Lemoninfluence
except exercise control over an object belonging to another with intent to permanently deprive the owner of the benefit of that good.

that's pretty much the textbook definition of theft over here.

ToS are not above the law. Unless it can be shown that this violin was seized and destroyed in accordance with anti-counterfeit laws i.e. the correct legal process was followed with sufficient evidence, then both Paypal and the buyer are guilty of destroying somebody else's possessions.



Hm, maybe so.
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#19
Quote by Lemoninfluence
Source?

both relating to the fact that it's counterfeit and that there's a legal requirement to destroy it without a court order.


You know me, obviously I don't have one but I'm doing some reading now and I can't find anything about the policies so obviously I'm wrong.


I can't find anything on the States, but in Canada, The border has the right to seize and destroy conterfeit products. Even still, Paypal and the Border are 2 very different things. If the border was the one to request the destruction of property I suppose it would be different but Paypal did


I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement#First_public_draft_.E2.80.94_April_2010


But it mostly covers intellectual rights and it says nothing about what I said. Plus it's only a proposal so it's useless to me.


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Quote by ethan_hanus
There was no proof that it was a fake, and in the article it's said that there's no such thing as a fake since violins are always works of art, which they are. If she gets the luthior who inspected the violin to testify, Pay Pal will most likely lose this case if she's suing.

Plus, the buyer nor pay pal owned the violin, so they had no right to order it's destruction, unless a court ordered it's destruction. It should of been sent back to the owner, and the buyer refunded for his money. Destroying it was just stupid, especially with no proof that it was a fake.


To be fair, a Stradivarius made in 1963 would be a fake. Otherwise, I realize that Paypal seems to be in the wrong.
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#20
It sucks to see anything that old be destroyed, especially instruments or debuting technologies for the time.
#21
^^
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#22
Why are people defending paypal's actions?

Like has been said many times, just because it's in the ToS doesn't make it legal. That's why scammers dispute their case if they put something illegal in their ToS.

Plus, how could a violin be counterfeit? Is the violin gonna sound like a bassoon or something because it's a counterfeit? A counterfeit made to the exact specs as a real item may aswell be real IMO.
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#23
Quote by Crazyedd123
Why are people defending paypal's actions?

Like has been said many times, just because it's in the ToS doesn't make it legal. That's why scammers dispute their case if they put something illegal in their ToS.

Plus, how could a violin be counterfeit? Is the violin gonna sound like a bassoon or something because it's a counterfeit? A counterfeit made to the exact specs as a real item may aswell be real IMO.



Serious?


It's counterfeit when you make a product and advertise it as something else, usually something of value no?


a $250 'Gibson' from China is a counterfeit. Especially when it says 'Gibson' when it clearly isn't. By your logic, it should be a real Gibson even though it isn't made in the same way.


A violin is no different. Stradivarius' work is notoriously counterfeited.


Also, it was said once, by Lemon. Not many times.
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Last edited by H4T3BR33D3R at Jan 4, 2012,
#24
Yeah I'm pretty sure they can't order you to destroy items like that... I hope she gets reimbursed, even though you can't replace the destroyed item.
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#25
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
Serious?


It's counterfeit when you make a product and advertise it as something else, usually

a $250 'Gibson' from China is a counterfeit. Especially when it says 'Gibson' when it clearly isn't. By your logic, it should be a real Gibson even though it isn't made in the same way.


Also, it was said once, by Lemon. Not many times.

For one, she was told it wasn't fake and sold it under the pretense that it wasn't fake.

What I was saying is that a violin designed in such a way that it rivals the quality and build of one built by a genuine luthier shouldn't be destroyed. The 'counterfeit' shouldn't be destroyed because, obviously, someone went to great lengths to make it.
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#26
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
Serious?


It's counterfeit when you make a product and advertise it as something else, usually something of value no?

the argument is that the origin of the instrument plays little to no part in the value of the instrument as it's difficult to verify the origin of violins anyway. The way in which the industry has worked is different to guitars etc.

Guitars are a relatively new instrument (or at least their popularity is) and they've been mass manufactured for a while. Vintage violins are different. Their origin is more difficult to ascertain as there's no overt branding except for an easily alterable sticker on the inside.

As such, the value of the instrument is derived from its quality, not its origin.

Although I have to admit I don't know much about violins, I'm just taking the facts I've been presented with and running with the logic of Trademark case law.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#27
Quote by Crazyedd123
For one, she was told it wasn't fake and sold it under the pretense that it wasn't fake.

What I was saying is that a violin designed in such a way that it rivals the quality and build of a one built by a genuine luthier shouldn't be destroyed. The 'counterfeit' shouldn't be destroyed because, obviously, someone went to great lengths to make it.


For one, that's a moot point because I wasn't arguing that.


What I'm arguing is that the product is counterfeit if you sell it as one thing and it isn't. Obviously I don't want to put words in your mouth so feel free to clear this up if I'm wrong, but from what I gather from this quote:


"Plus, how could a violin be counterfeit? Is the violin gonna sound like a bassoon or something because it's a counterfeit? A counterfeit made to the exact specs as a real item may aswell be real IMO."


What I'm understanding from this is Violins can only be counterfeit if they don't sound like a violin and if the violin is made of the same quality, you can sell it as the original product and it wouldn't be a big deal. That's just wrong.


Don't you think you're entitled to exactly what you payed for? If I payed for an American Gibson guitar, I wouldn't be happy with a Chinese one. No matter the quality.


it's about the principle. Not the product.


Quote by Lemoninfluence
the argument is that the origin of the instrument plays little to no part in the value of the instrument as it's difficult to verify the origin of violins anyway. The way in which the industry has worked is different to guitars etc.

Guitars are a relatively new instrument (or at least their popularity is) and they've been mass manufactured for a while. Vintage violins are different. Their origin is more difficult to ascertain as there's no overt branding except for an easily alterable sticker on the inside.

As such, the value of the instrument is derived from its quality, not its origin.

Although I have to admit I don't know much about violins, I'm just taking the facts I've been presented with and running with the logic of Trademark case law.



Actually, you can have a good idea if its fake. With what kinds of woods were used in contruction among other things. For instance a Stradivarius would never use Spruce anywhere, whereas a modern copy would probably not be adverse to using that type of wood. Probably not a good source, but in an episode of Pawn Stars, their expert spotted the fake quite quick simply by checking the construction and the aging.


Dating a violin is like dating Samurai Swords. You look for specific marks and signatures (not necessarily written ones, it could be the shape), make sure the wear and contruction is appropriate for its age.
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#28
My lawyer noticed that when he was reading through the ToS last year.
#29
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
Actually, you can have a good idea if its fake. With what kinds of woods were used in contruction among other things. For instance a Stradivarius would never use Spruce anywhere, whereas a modern copy would probably not be adverse to using that type of wood. Probably not a good source, but in an episode of Pawn Stars, their expert spotted the fake quite quick simply by checking the construction and the aging.


Dating a violin is like dating Samurai Swords. You look for specific marks and signatures (not necessarily written ones, it could be the shape), make sure the wear and contruction is appropriate for its age.

But that would only identify whether it's a stradivarius. It wouldn't ascertain it's actual origin.

If I build a Les Paul to Gibson's specs using the same woods etc, you'd still be able to tell that it wasn't a gibson because of the branding (not saying that that couldn't be reproduced but for this example assume it isn't). With a Violin, that branding isn't there. So you have to assess the value of the instrument based upon its construction and condition etc.

Counterfeiting is all about profiting off the good name of someone else. But as the origin of Violins is difficult to establish anyway, the good name is less of a factor.
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#30
Quote by Lemoninfluence
But that would only identify whether it's a stradivarius. It wouldn't ascertain it's actual origin.

If I build a Les Paul to Gibson's specs using the same woods etc, you'd still be able to tell that it wasn't a gibson because of the branding (not saying that that couldn't be reproduced but for this example assume it isn't). With a Violin, that branding isn't there.
So you have to assess the value of the instrument based upon its construction and condition etc.

Counterfeiting is all about profiting off the good name of someone else. But as the origin of Violins is difficult to establish anyway, the good name is less of a factor.


The origin of the violin? Like where it's made? I don't think that matters so much when we're talking about the famous violins.


The branding might not be there, but the trademarks and quirks are what differentiates them. If they didn't, then nobody could tell the difference between a Guarneri and a Stradivari.


Also, if you have a name like Stradivari or Amati, those violins are worth a lot of cash. Counterfeiting would make sense there then right? Cause I can make a decent profit copying a Stradi simply because of the name. Maybe even millions.


The good name is less of a factor when it comes to everyday violins I agree, but for old violins its all about the maker. That's where the value is.


Although, I really know fuck all so it's probably wrong.
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#31
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
For one, that's a moot point because I wasn't arguing that.

What I'm arguing is that the product is counterfeit if you sell it as one thing and it isn't. Obviously I don't want to put words in your mouth so feel free to clear this up if I'm wrong, but from what I gather from this quote:


"Plus, how could a violin be counterfeit? Is the violin gonna sound like a bassoon or something because it's a counterfeit? A counterfeit made to the exact specs as a real item may aswell be real IMO."


What I'm understanding from this is Violins can only be counterfeit if they don't sound like a violin and if the violin is made of the same quality, you can sell it as the original product and it wouldn't be a big deal. That's just wrong.


Don't you think you're entitled to exactly what you payed for? If I payed for an American Gibson guitar, I wouldn't be happy with a Chinese one. No matter the quality.


it's about the principle. Not the product.

I can understand what you mean but, if someone were to sell me a counterfeit guitar with the same build, design, specs. etc. with the same name (which is illegal, I know) for a lower price. I'd be happy with it.

I guess I'm going by the 'ignorance is bliss' philosophy in this argument. If I didn't know it was a fake and it felt and played exactly like the original, then I wouldn't really care, although I would be abit annoyed if I found out it was a fake.
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#32
Quote by Crazyedd123
I can understand what you mean but, if someone were to sell me a counterfeit guitar with the same build, design, specs. etc. with the same name (which is illegal, I know) for a lower price. I'd be happy with it.

I guess I'm going by the 'ignorance is bliss' philosophy in this argument. If I didn't know it was a fake and it felt and played exactly like the original, then I wouldn't really care, although I would be abit annoyed if I found out it was a fake.


I'd be happy with it too. IF I didn't pay the American price. If they charged me like 2500 bucks and I found out it was fake, I would probably cry.


That's my issue with counterfeiting. The people that sell the fakes for real prices.
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#33
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
The origin of the violin? Like where it's made? I don't think that matters so much when we're talking about the famous violins.
no, I meant who built it.

The branding might not be there, but the trademarks and quirks are what differentiates them. If they didn't, then nobody could tell the difference between a Guarneri and a Stradivari.

yes but each of those quirks are unique to one maker (I assume) so you couldn't look at it and go "it's a violin made by X" where X is an unknown name that you can then research to find out the value. You can only look at the quality and say "this is a Strad" or "this is not a strad" and eliminate the options of what it isn't until you find something it is. That's the difference between Violins and guitars.

Also, if you have a name like Stradivari or Amati, those violins are worth a lot of cash. Counterfeiting would make sense there then right? Cause I can make a decent profit copying a Stradi simply because of the name. Maybe even millions.

but you would have to have a good quality instrument that conformed to all the quirks to be able to do it i.e. you'd be making an instrument that does what people want it to do.

The good name is less of a factor when it comes to everyday violins I agree, but for old violins its all about the maker. That's where the value is.


That's the point, this wasn't a strad or another 'big' name (as far as I can tell). This was simply a vintage instrument that was valuable due to its quality and history. Not its maker.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#34
Quote by Lemoninfluence
no, I meant who built it.


yes but each of those quirks are unique to one maker (I assume) so you couldn't look at it and go "it's a violin made by X" where X is an unknown name that you can then research to find out the value. You can only look at the quality and say "this is a Strad" or "this is not a strad" and eliminate the options of what it isn't until you find something it is. That's the difference between Violins and guitars.[


but you would have to have a good quality instrument that conformed to all the quirks to be able to do it i.e. you'd be making an instrument that does what people want it to do.


That's the point, this wasn't a strad or another 'big' name (as far as I can tell). This was simply a vintage instrument that was valuable due to its quality and history. Not its maker.



Oh I'm not arguing that it's a Strad (it obviously isn't) , I'm arguing that violins get counterfeited.


There are other ways of identifying aside from quality. The famous violin makers signed their work. If the paper is still in tact, you'd be able to tell really quick. Much like the Gibson logo.





Without that slip in the violin though, you're SOL
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#35
I can't believe a lot of you are defending paypal in this case. They just purposefully destroyed an instrument from pre- WWII. There is literally no reason to do such a thing, regardless of their Terms of Service.
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#36
Quote by Vandals572
I can't believe a lot of you are defending paypal in this case. They just purposefully destroyed an instrument from pre- WWII. There is literally no reason to do such a thing, regardless of their Terms of Service.



I can't believe that you can't believe that somebody has a different viewpoint than yours.

SHOCKING!!!


Initially people didn't know all the facts, so people came to conclusions. If you asked the same people now that we know the whole story, they've probably changed their tune.
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