Are transexuals/transgender people the sex they were born or the sex they choose?

Poll: Can you choose your sex or gender?
Poll Options
View poll results: Can you choose your sex or gender?
Yes
14 45%
No
11 35%
Trans- people should have their own identification
1 3%
Other
5 16%
Voters: 31.
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#1
This is honestly something where I don't know what to decide, hopefully The Pit can throw some arguments to help me decide.

I know people who believe that it doesn't matter if you choose to live your life as a man/woman or get surgery to become a man/woman, you are what you were born as.

I know people who disagree, you should live your life as what you choose to be.

I've heard a third argument that these people should be allowed to identify as a distinguishable sex/gender (I've heard the term "gender queer")

EDIT: Figured out how to add a poll, thanks Kjell

EDIT2: I know gender and sex aren't the same thing. Answer the question in both regards.
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Last edited by Gibson_SG_uzr55 at Jan 5, 2012,
#2
You're gonna be corrected

(Edit 'sex' to 'gender' - you'll be in the clear.)

EDIT: My actual answer is pretty simple - I'm pretty cool with whatever. Sexes are weird. I mean, being male or female, and having people recognise you as a person in light of that is just weird as a phenomena. Just like various manners and aspects to culture are weird.

I'm okay for people to invent their own gender and assign it to themselves if they want. I'm pretty cool with whatever (and so should everyone else - doesn't hurt anyone).
Last edited by Craigo at Jan 5, 2012,
#5
It's such a strange topic, the concept of wanting to "transend genders" just blows my mind. In my opinion it is very wrong to mutilate the human body in such a way.

In my humble opinion you are as God has made you.
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#6
They are imaginary beings like unicorns and tinkerbell.
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#7
Is an Atheist a Christian?


Even though he was born a Christian?
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#8
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It's such a strange topic, the concept of wanting to "transend genders" just blows my mind. In my opinion it is very wrong to mutilate the human body in such a way.

In my humble opinion you are as God has made you.


#9
I lived with a mtf transgendered person.

Living in Germany, she's actually more female than most of the "real" women we have here.
#10
Let them be what they want. If they were born a man and say they're a woman then let them. Unless it's on official forms and stuff, I think they should at least have a sex change before being allowed to change them on official documents.
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#11
Okay, the poll isn't coming. I lost internet signal while the thread was in the middle of submission
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#12
Scientifically, they're the sex they're born with
Philosophically, I think they should be considered the sex they feel like as well.

mkay?
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#14
I honestly don't care enough to form an opinion. It's not a situation i've ever had to think about, so it's whatever floats their boat. Be what you want to be.
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#16
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Last edited by GunsNSnakepits at Jan 5, 2012,
#17
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Scientifically, they're the sex they're born with
Philosophically, I think they should be considered the sex they feel like as well.

mkay?

I'm appalled no-one has brought this up yet. I was too lazy to do it in my first post.

Anyway - sex is understood to be biological, gender social. A transgendered person may be female socially but 'biologically' male. It probably wasn't this way in the 19th century and is most likely a useful redefinition for the benefit of various groups of people. People inclined to think like these groups of people are likely to quote these definitions with arrogance, as if it's been like that since the dawn of time. However it's a pretty damn useful distinction.
Last edited by Craigo at Jan 5, 2012,
#18
I believe they are the sex they were born, but it doesn't bother me what people classify themselves as in the slightest. As somebody above said, it doesn't hurt or affect me in any way, live and let live.
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#19
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You're gonna be corrected

(Edit 'sex' to 'gender' - you'll be in the clear.)


Yup, first thing that came to mind.

But even though the crisp distinction between sex and gender is fairly common knowledge (even amongst non-sociology students ), its quite weird that the terms 'transgender' and 'transsexual' are used interchangeably.
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#20
I've always found it strange how strongly people tend to identify themselves based on their sex. If sexual stereotypes weren't so strong, then maybe everyone could be happy the way they are, as they wouldn't feel that they need to be and behave in a certain manner.

Then again, maybe sexual stereotypes and roles are so dominant just because the differences between men and women go so much deeper than what's between their legs...

However, I think that if someone makes a decision to live their life as a member of the opposite sex and make a conscious effort about it, then I'll accept them as what they want to be. I don't see any problem with it, either - I think people should be given a chance to the life they want to lead, be it sexual orientation or whatever. As long as no one is hurt and / or made do something against their will, all is good to me.
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#21
I would not consider a transsexual person (whether pre-op or post -op) a "woman"in the same sense I consider a woman a woman (meaning one who was born and stayed a woman). And it goes vice versa for women who want to be men.

The only way I would is if we really got it to this advance scientific state where we could make a man into a woman, with almost no way of ever knowing he was a male, and he's near identical to a women in biology.
#22
gender=/=sex
*-)
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#24
Sex is biological. If you're transexual then you've had/plan to have surgery to alter your genitalia to the opposite sex. Of course you can't change someone's chromosomes, but you can use hormone therapy to alter the way their body reacts/develops. So sex is somewhat rocky ground with the subject. Throw in hermaphrodites and the whole thing just becomes absurd.

Gender is social. It's moreso how you identify yourself and how you act within social constructs of male/female. I'd say gender is changeable, since it's really not physical at all. If you're transgender then you identify yourself as the gender contrary to what your biology might indicate.

I really think it's better to look at the whole thing as a spectrum with plenty of middle ground rather than a rigid "either/or" dichotomy.
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#25
So if i feel like Chuck Norris, then im Chuck Norris?
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#27
Ehm, it's not like someone wakes up an goes "eh, life isn't going so well, so maybe I should chop my dick off"; it's a disconnection in the brain that makes you feel discomfort in the body and gender you are born with.
They don't just feel like changing things up, it's a condition you are born with that results in a complete disconnection with your physical body. It isn't a choice, just like being born gay, disabled, or what have you isn't a choice.
#28
They are whatever gender they decide they are, you have no right to tell them otherwise.

As far as sex go, scientifically their genitals and hormones determine whether they or male or female or whatever have you.
#30
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Only if you're transgender
#31
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So if i feel like Chuck Norris, then im Chuck Norris?

If you feel like a strawman you are a strawman.

You're clearly not distinguishing between the physical and social aspects of this. If you want to be called "Chuck Norris," then yes, you are Chuck Norris, but in name only. Names aren't real, like gender. It's something that only exists because you say it does. That's what separates gender from sex.
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#32
Sex is, in my opinion, determined by what sexual organs they have:
Penis: male
Vagina: female
Neither/both: sexless

Gender is determined by what gender they want to have.
#33
For sex, whatever they're born as, for gender, whatever they identify as.
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#34
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#35
This discussion isn't worth having in the Pit simply because most Pit monkeys are simply to uneducated on the matter for their opinion to be informed, let alone valid. Add in that most Pit monkeys probably have little to no practical experience with the trans community, and these threads always end up with those of us that *do* know what's up facepalming ourselves into next Tuesday.

Basically, read this to start, and then get some familiarity with the idea of gender as a performative social construct (aka go read Judith Butler's book on the topic), and then you can actually have this discussion in a non-fucktarded manner.

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#36
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If you feel like a strawman you are a strawman.

You're clearly not distinguishing between the physical and social aspects of this. If you want to be called "Chuck Norris," then yes, you are Chuck Norris, but in name only. Names aren't real, like gender. It's something that only exists because you say it does. That's what separates gender from sex.


Close to agree but disagree.

Even if we work with a wide, lofty understanding of gender, it is still an active social indoctrination. If sex is the natural condition, then gender is its expected social expression.

Its a protocol.

Girls being made to play with barbies while boys being made to play with G.I Joes is perhaps the best example of engendering.

I don't agree that gender exists only because one says it does, because it takes social acknowledgement and not just personal conviction to fit a particular gender-role. Because it is after all, a social phenomenon.

Also, using the same line of logic, a man may legally name himself "Christina" which is purely his own business, but the problems he may face in college, in his workspace,his (literally) social life cause of his name is because of his deviation from his "gender".

But if the same man were to get a sex change, or dress as a woman or basically take steps to appear like he belongs to the other sex, then that would go a long way in engendering himself to be accepted as a "Christina".

Weird, I know. But these "social realities" can seem much more real than biological facts.

But I agree that genders and gender-roles are quite malleable.
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#37
Sorry, by "real" I just meant "physically tangible."
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#38
Oh, then...


...you wanna see my penis?


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#40
Only if you tell me you're a girl...

but I'm also highly distracted by your avatar.
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