#1
Having trouble with theory again.........

ok so i just learned this formula for finding sharps and flats in any key and ive knida ran into a snag

so this is what i learned... say where tryin to find the flats in Fmaj.... you start by writing out the circle of fifths BEADGCF .....go to C.... and then count to F..... and you get one... and then you go back tto the very begginning and count however many letters you just counted from C ......witch was one ....and you count one letter from the beggining of B E A D G C F ...... and you get B ....so B is now Bb .....and that works just fine .........but when trying to find oh say the flats in Emaj in my mind it changes the key to Ebmaj .......because E is 3 away from C ... and when you go back to the beggining to count for flats E IS ONE OF THEM!!!! hence changing the key to Eb ........


maybe im just very confused , can someone help me out ive been tryin to figure this out for days
#2
Quote by lesbian seagull
Having trouble with theory again.........

ok so i just learned this formula for finding sharps and flats in any key and ive knida ran into a snag

so this is what i learned... say where tryin to find the flats in Fmaj.... you start by writing out the circle of fifths BEADGCF .....go to C.... and then count to F..... and you get one... and then you go back tto the very begginning and count however many letters you just counted from C ......witch was one ....and you count one letter from the beggining of B E A D G C F ...... and you get B ....so B is now Bb .....and that works just fine .........but when trying to find oh say the flats in Emaj in my mind it changes the key to Ebmaj .......because E is 3 away from C ... and when you go back to the beggining to count for flats E IS ONE OF THEM!!!! hence changing the key to Eb ........


maybe im just very confused , can someone help me out ive been tryin to figure this out for days

Eb isn't a correct term for the last degree.
It's D#.
In a major or minor scale you can't have 2 of the same note names in it.
E F# G# A B C# D#.
See how I didn't say E Gb G# because there is already a G in there.
So general rule is:
In a scale you can't have 2 of the same note names.
#3
First of all ellipses are not valid punctuation in this context, what the hell. Second of all, ellipses consist of three dots each one space apart, . . . not seven like .......

Anyway, this is an insane way to learn key signatures in my view. My suggestion would be to simply memorize them. Know that F has one flat and that E has four sharps. Then, know that the order of sharps if FCGDAEB and the order of flats is BEADGCF. So when you have one flat you start at the beginning of the order (like you had) and find that it's a Bb. When you have 4 sharps you go to the beginning of the order of sharps and count four F# C# G# D# and that's your key signature. Less tricky bullshit and more just knowing. This isn't something that's going to affect your playing in any real sense, this is just naming stuff, and the faster you can do that the better off you'll be.
#4
Here's a suggestion that I use:

Major scales follow the pattern; Whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, and half.

This is easy to do on a piano or even just in you head.
For example, in F Major you'd start on F. Using the pattern, it is..
F (starting), Whole -- G, Whole -- A, Half -- B flat, Whole -- C, Whole -- D, Whole -- E, and Half -- F (ending)

It works for any major key signature. And the guy above me is right. The same letter cannot be in twice. No Gb and G#, it is F# and G# in that case.

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#5
Quote by lesbian seagull
Having trouble with theory again.........

ok so i just learned this formula for finding sharps and flats in any key and ive knida ran into a snag

so this is what i learned... say where tryin to find the flats in Fmaj.... you start by writing out the circle of fifths BEADGCF .....go to C.... and then count to F..... and you get one... and then you go back tto the very begginning and count however many letters you just counted from C ......witch was one ....and you count one letter from the beggining of B E A D G C F ...... and you get B ....so B is now Bb .....and that works just fine .........but when trying to find oh say the flats in Emaj in my mind it changes the key to Ebmaj .......because E is 3 away from C ... and when you go back to the beggining to count for flats E IS ONE OF THEM!!!! hence changing the key to Eb ........


maybe im just very confused , can someone help me out ive been tryin to figure this out for days



Get a teacher as soon as you can. You're going about it in a way that is going to entangle your progress, and wrong. If you are going to try to work out this alone, use the whole step half step formula and get your notes correct.

Best,

Sean
#6
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
First of all ellipses are not valid punctuation in this context, what the hell. Second of all, ellipses consist of three dots each one space apart, . . . not seven like .......

Anyway, this is an insane way to learn key signatures in my view. My suggestion would be to simply memorize them. Know that F has one flat and that E has four sharps. Then, know that the order of sharps if FCGDAEB and the order of flats is BEADGCF. So when you have one flat you start at the beginning of the order (like you had) and find that it's a Bb. When you have 4 sharps you go to the beginning of the order of sharps and count four F# C# G# D# and that's your key signature. Less tricky bullshit and more just knowing. This isn't something that's going to affect your playing in any real sense, this is just naming stuff, and the faster you can do that the better off you'll be.


ok , but if C has no # or b then why would it be FCGDAEB for # and BEADGCF for b and not CGDAEBGb for sharps and vice versa for flats , you know just start at C instead of F or B
#7
Quote by lesbian seagull
ok , but if C has no # or b then why would it be FCGDAEB for # and BEADGCF for b and not CGDAEBGb for sharps and vice versa for flats , you know just start at C instead of F or B



nevermind i think i just figuered out the answer to my own quistion
#8
Quote by lesbian seagull
Having trouble with theory again.........

ok so i just learned this formula for finding sharps and flats in any key and ive knida ran into a snag

so this is what i learned... say where tryin to find the flats in Fmaj.... you start by writing out the circle of fifths BEADGCF .....go to C.... and then count to F..... and you get one... and then you go back tto the very begginning and count however many letters you just counted from C ......witch was one ....and you count one letter from the beggining of B E A D G C F ...... and you get B ....so B is now Bb .....and that works just fine .........but when trying to find oh say the flats in Emaj in my mind it changes the key to Ebmaj .......because E is 3 away from C ... and when you go back to the beggining to count for flats E IS ONE OF THEM!!!! hence changing the key to Eb ........


maybe im just very confused , can someone help me out ive been tryin to figure this out for days

Do you understand the difference between the circle of fifths and circle of fouths?
#10
Quote by mdc
Do you understand the difference between the circle of fifths and circle of fouths?


i think so , fourths is counterclockwise , fifths is clockwise, not sure why its called fourths and fifths though , is it the difference in intervals?
#11
Yes. What's the interval between Gb and Cb?
Last edited by mdc at Jan 6, 2012,
#12
Quote by lesbian seagull
i think so , fourths is counterclockwise , fifths is clockwise, not sure why its called fourths and fifths though , is it the difference in intervals?

In a way. If you look at C and go one space right, or clockwise, you come to G. G is a fifth away from C. Next we have D, a fifth away from D. And so on.

But if you look at C and go left, or counterclockwise, you come to F, which is a fourth away from C. And it continues in fourths.

So if you go right, it's fifths, and if you go left, it's fourths.
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#13
A and Bb are the same thing right? so if i wanted to find how many flats there where in A i would count counterclockwise on the circle of fifths to find it ? is that right ?
#14
Quote by lesbian seagull
A and Bb are the same thing right? so if i wanted to find how many flats there where in A i would count counterclockwise on the circle of fifths to find it ? is that right ?

They aren't the same thing at all. Bb is the enharmonic (same note, different name) equivalent of A sharp (it's not on my keyboard ).

I think you're best off just remembering them. Technically there are no flats in A, there are three sharps.
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#15
Quote by lfcagger
They aren't the same thing at all. Bb is the enharmonic (same note, different name) equivalent of A sharp (it's not on my keyboard ).

I think you're best off just remembering them. Technically there are no flats in A, there are three sharps.



ya you can prolly tell im pretty mixed up, so if their arent any flats in A and im playing a chord progression in Eb then i cant use A major , **** i dont know cause i thought you couldnt mix # and b , wish i wasnt so stupid!!
#16
Quote by lesbian seagull
ya you can prolly tell im pretty mixed up, so if their arent any flats in A and im playing a chord progression in Eb then i cant use A major , **** i dont know cause i thought you couldnt mix # and b , wish i wasnt so stupid!!

There is nothing to say you can't use A major. Theory isn't a set of rules, it's to tell you why something sounds good. Play what sounds good.
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#17
well i know that but what im sayin is that it changes everything since A has sharps and Bb has flats , theres gotta be a way to like idk transpose the Sharps in A to flats so tha it corresponds to Bb or any other b
#18
Quote by lesbian seagull
well i know that but what im sayin is that it changes everything since A has sharps and Bb has flats , theres gotta be a way to like idk transpose the Sharps in A to flats so tha it corresponds to Bb or any other b


There is but it won't look pretty.

A B C# D E F# G#
A B Db D E Gb Ab

That's the simple way of using the Enharmonics on the A Major Scale to show flats.
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#19
Quote by lesbian seagull
Having trouble with theory again.........

ok so i just learned this formula for finding sharps and flats in any key and ive knida ran into a snag

so this is what i learned... say where tryin to find the flats in Fmaj.... you start by writing out the circle of fifths BEADGCF .....go to C.... and then count to F..... and you get one... and then you go back tto the very begginning and count however many letters you just counted from C ......witch was one ....and you count one letter from the beggining of B E A D G C F ...... and you get B ....so B is now Bb .....and that works just fine .........but when trying to find oh say the flats in Emaj in my mind it changes the key to Ebmaj .......because E is 3 away from C ... and when you go back to the beggining to count for flats E IS ONE OF THEM!!!! hence changing the key to Eb ........


maybe im just very confused , can someone help me out ive been tryin to figure this out for days




Also, E major has no flats. I has four sharps [F#, G#, C#, D#]. Eb major has 3 flats [Eb, Ab, Bb].
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#20
Quote by Woffelz


Also, E major has no flats. I has four sharps [F#, G#, C#, D#]. Eb major has 3 flats [Eb, Ab, Bb].



ok so basically everything on the right side of the circle can only have sharps and everything on the left side flats?
#21
Quote by lesbian seagull
ok so basically everything on the right side of the circle can only have sharps and everything on the left side flats?


Go around the circle clockwise. The keys have only sharps until F#/Gb. F# and Gb are pretty much the same set of pitches, just labelled different. F# has 6 sharps and Gb has six flats. After Gb, the keys become flat keys.
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#22
Quote by Woffelz
Go around the circle clockwise. The keys have only sharps until F#/Gb. F# and Gb are pretty much the same set of pitches, just labelled different. F# has 6 sharps and Gb has six flats. After Gb, the keys become flat keys.


is it all the same for minor keys ?
#23
Yes, the relative minor. But you should leave this stuff for another time. Best take a step back.