#1
Hey guys and girls.

I was wondering how a dominant or augmented scale is formed. I see hundreds of different scales and some are dominant or augmented but what exactly makes these scales dominant or augmented and how do I create them using formulae.

for instances the Phrygian mode's formula is:
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
and the Phrygian Dominant is:
1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7

How does the slight difference that the 3rd is no longer flat make this dominant :O?

Thanks!

edit: is it because the 3rd 5th and b7 make a dominant chord? :s
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Last edited by Spitty33 at Jan 7, 2012,
#2
Yeah, generally speaking a dominant scale contains both the 3rd and b7th scale degrees of a dominant chord, making it suitable to use over a dominant chord, hence the name. I don't believe I've ever come across such thing as an augmented scale, but if there was one I'd be willing to say it included the 3rd and #5th of an augmented chord.
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#3
A dominant chord is 1-3-5-b7 so yes it is because the 3rd is no longer flat.

An augmented scale is where every note is separated by 2 half steps, making it different from an octave to another.
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#4
An augmented scale is where every note is separated by 2 half steps, making it different from an octave to another.


That's a whole tone scale, it's not different from one octave to the next at all.

A dominant scale will contain 1-3-5-b7 (the notes of a dominant chord)
An augmented scale will contain 1-3-#5 (the notes of an augmented chord)
#5
augmented just means #5, so I'd imagine it's a scale with a...#5

dominant refers to a b7 so the scale would have a b7 degree in it. Like the bebop dominant scale, lets do it in C:
C D E F G A Bb B
The Bb would be the b7.
#6
Dominant is not just b7, its b7 in combination with 3.

I don't think you can have augumented scales (maybe theoretically, but not practically since most minor scales have a b6 anyway), it's more of an arpeggio or a chord thing - just replace the 5 with #5.
#7
Chord I must be able to form a I7 chord for a dominant scale. I had this question a few months back too.
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#8
There is no such thing as a dominant scale.

Dominant is a harmonic function in which a tritone exists to be resolved. So really, almost any scale or chord can be altered to create this interval.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#9
Quote by Xiaoxi
There is no such thing as a dominant scale.

Dominant is a harmonic function in which a tritone exists to be resolved.
Sure there is...and you don't have to have a tritone to have a dominant function.

@TS - Listen to this guy,

Quote by Freepower
A dominant scale will contain 1-3-5-b7 (the notes of a dominant chord)
An augmented scale will contain 1-3-#5 (the notes of an augmented chord)
Si
#10
Quote by Freepower
That's a whole tone scale, it's not different from one octave to the next at all.

A dominant scale will contain 1-3-5-b7 (the notes of a dominant chord)
An augmented scale will contain 1-3-#5 (the notes of an augmented chord)


This, but to clarify on the dominant scale. I would alter what was said above slightly.

A dominant scale will contain 1-3-b7

For instance you can get the Altered or Superlocrian scale, which is a scale for functioning dominant chords, and has a b5th, and infact a b5th can be quite a common sound, especially on a dominant chord that is the V of a minor i.
#15
I'm not disagreeing, it's an altered dominant scale after all! Just pointing out that it's not really any more complicated than using the chord name to form the scale and then sensibly filling out the other degrees.
#16
Quote by 20Tigers
Sure there is...and you don't have to have a tritone to have a dominant function.

No there isn't. It's a misnomer, and it leads to confusion about the role of 7th degrees. And just because a tritone might not be present in a specific chordal voicing doesn't deny that it exists in its scalar derivative.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#18
Quote by Xiaoxi
No there isn't. It's a misnomer, and it leads to confusion about the role of 7th degrees.
OK

Quote by Xiaoxi
And just because a tritone might not be present in a specific chordal voicing doesn't deny that it exists in its scalar derivative.
what does that even mean? "it exists in it's scalar derivative"?
Si
#19
Quote by 20Tigers

what does that even mean? "it exists in it's scalar derivative"?

If we have a G that goes to C (as opposed to G7 -> C), the scale derived from the G includes a tritone between the points F and B.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#20
Quote by Freepower

A dominant scale will contain 1-3-5-b7 (the notes of a dominant chord)
An augmented scale will contain 1-3-#5 (the notes of an augmented chord)

Sorry man, gonna have to pick on you for a bit :P

This is why the term dominant doesn't apply to scalar descriptions. You're suggesting that dominant scales will always contain those chord tones while other chord tones can be altered, but what you really mean is that the mixolydian scale can be altered. But dominant, in its true meaning, goes beyond this very limited description. Locrian and octatonic scales are also "dominant" scales and they clearly don't fit this description. So again, dominant should not be used to describe scalar makeup, but rather in context of harmonic functionality.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#21
Would you mind elaborating a bit on the dominant functionality of chords derived from the octatonic scales? (presuming you mean the wholetone and diminished scales)

Is it just a matter of the tritone existing within the scale or is there more to it?

And to be honest, if the TS is looking up lists of scales I hope my answer would make more sense to him.
#22
Quote by Freepower
Would you mind elaborating a bit on the dominant functionality of chords derived from the octatonic scales? (presuming you mean the wholetone and diminished scales)
Well, octatonic refers to whole-half or half-whole diminished scales, both of which construct full diminished chords, which are most often used as dominant chords. The difference between that and a chord derived from some variation of mixolydian is that there are two tritones to be resolved instead of just one.

Is it just a matter of the tritone existing within the scale or is there more to it?
Pretty much. The tritone is the unique property that compels resolutions in tonal music. When it's omitted in the physical voicing, it's still implied.


And to be honest, if the TS is looking up lists of scales I hope my answer would make more sense to him.

Eh, it's not that much of a detour to just simply clarify that he means scales derived from mixolydian. Too often people think the "dominant" has something to do with lowering the 7th degree of scale. Just the other day a couple of idiots insisted on calling every b7 as a dominant 7th.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#23
Thanks for that, I'd never really thought of non-dominant chords as having a dominant function. I think with my jazz-lenses on I just saw "substitutions" and never really clued in.
#24
Quote by Freepower
Thanks for that, I'd never really thought of non-dominant chords as having a dominant function. I think with my jazz-lenses on I just saw "substitutions" and never really clued in.

Yep, they can be substitutes. But just think about what that really means.

If you get a substitute teacher, the purpose of that position is still to TEACH. So if you're substituting a G7 with a Bdim7 to resolve to C, that Bdim7 still needs to do what the G7 was gonna do, hence why it is a dominant functioning chord. You can break down all tonal harmony into 3 categories (which are not always mutually exclusive): subdominant, dominant, tonic.

You can also flip this around. "Dominant" chords are not always dominant. Take the blues or some funk or rock tunes for examples. They use a "dominant" chord as the tonic. This is, again, why the term dominant should be clarified.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jan 10, 2012,
#26
^

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#27
I guess the TS could have benefited if it was pointed out that it is a common practice to describe scales in regards to the the chords built off the root when the scale is harmonized.

So for example a diminished triad is 1 b3 b5
A diminished scale would contain those notes (1 b3 b5)
A full diminished chord is a seventh chord with the notes 1 b3 b5 bb7
So if I described a scale as fully diminished you would know that it contains the notes 1 b3 b5 bb7.

Similarly a dominant 7 chord has the notes 1 3 5 b7. A "dominant" scale contains the scale degrees 1 3 5 b7.

A minor scale contains the scale degrees 1 b3 5

An augmented scale contains the scale degrees 1 3 #5

so then by using deduction you can work out a general idea of what a scale is when someone use such descriptions or combines them with other terms. If for example you see something like "Phrygian Dominant" then it is the Phrygian scale but the "dominant" part tells you that it will contain the scale degrees 1 3 5 b7. So a good guess would see you take the Phrygian scale (1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7) and make it so that it outlines a dominant seventh chord. If you look all you need to do is make the minor third a major third and you have 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 - Phrygian Dominant.

@Xiaoxi - I saw those same idiots insisting that dominant meant minor 7.

But I don't think that the problem is from describing scales as "dominant". I think the problem is idiocy (as you pointed out), and I also think that the people in question never learned the terms for scale degrees (tonic supertonic mediant subdominant dominant submediant (subtonic)leading tone). They never learned what dominant actually meant.

I suppose they then learned the chords by reading the name and spelling Maj 7 = 1 3 5 7 and then Dom7 = 1 3 5 b7 and then they erroneously concluded that the term "dominant 7" simple meant b7. When I think about it like this I can see how someone that has no guidance or insufficient resources would make such a mistake.

They never actually learned why the dominant seventh chord was named the "dominant" seventh chord. Which is of course because it is the formed from the dominant scale degree when harmonizing the major scale.

Of course most people would listen and realize their mistake. That guy was just a stubborn idiot or a troll. (I think the former, though to be fair I don't think I stuck around to find out) But just because there are idiots doesn't mean that we should stop naming the dominant 7 chord "dominant".
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 10, 2012,
#28
^^good posts

It's always broken down in tonic, subdominant, and dominant.

Minor key functions the same way, and minor scale =/= minor key.

Also Diminished chords are not always substitutes/dominant functioning chords.

In a Major key :

            Diminished chords here are just one big "I" ornamentation.
          /                   tonic
/---------------\              /
I - VII - I - VII - IV - V -  I
                    /     \ 
                   /       dominant
           sub-dominant


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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 13, 2012,