#1
With a capo on the 3rd fret i'm playing the A,F,C,G open chord shapes

If I'm doing it right I think that works out to the notes C, G, D#/Eb, A#/Bb . Is that right?
If thats the only four notes in a song( in that order), would that be the key of F?
With a borrowed note (D#/Eb)from another key in there?

I'm kinda new to all this and want to see if i'm on the right track. Thanks
#2
Think of a capo as like a barre chord. If there's no capo and you make a barre chord on the 3rd fret (E shape), you'll get a G chord. If you put the capo on the 3rd and make an open E shape, you'll get that very same G chord again.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#3
Not too sure about an "open" F chord. Could you clarify that shape? All the others are right, however.

Clarify that F chord and we can sort out the key.
#5
Without a capo, and with generic strumming in 4/4, and looping the progression, it resolves to Am. Key = Am.

With a capo, the key is Cm.

But without any idea of harmonic rhythm and melody, it's hard to tell.

The chord is Ab.

I - VI - III - VII
Last edited by mdc at Jan 9, 2012,
#6
Quote by SouthFL79
With a capo on the 3rd fret i'm playing the A,F,C,G open chord shapes

If I'm doing it right I think that works out to the notes C, G, D#/Eb, A#/Bb . Is that right?
If thats the only four notes in a song( in that order), would that be the key of F?
With a borrowed note (D#/Eb)from another key in there?

I'm kinda new to all this and want to see if i'm on the right track. Thanks


F isn't an open chord. It's at least a barre or partial barre. Your F with a capo 3 is an Ab.

The chords are as follows:

1. C (correct)
2. Ab
3. Eb (correct)
4. Bb (correct)

The answer of your last question depends entirely upon resolution, aka where the song feels "finished".

Best,

Sean
#7
Thanks for the help guys. The confusion for me came because of the open strings on the open chords with the capo. I didn't take those notes into account. It was just a progression I was playing around with and was trying to figure out what the capo does to the key. But it makes much more sense to me now. Thanks again!
#8
A capo on the third fret is used quite commonly in country music, in order to access the keys of F major, and Bb Major.

I'll give you the open voices first, then the capoed values. These are in I,IV, V scale degrees:

Key of F Major: F= Barre @ 1st fret, Bb also barre @ 1st fret with A Major open voice, C open.

Key of F Major, capo @ 3rd fret; F = D Major open, Bb = G open, and C = A open.

Key of Bb Major: Bb = barre @ 1st fret, Eb (none), F Major =barre 2 1st fret.

Key of Bb Major, capo @ 3rd fret; Bb = G open, Eb = C open, and F = D open

The keys of Ab and Db would happen for you with the capo on the 1st fret. I"ll let you count those off yourself, now that you've tentatively gotten the hang of it.


@MDC @ Sean, I'm sure you could finger Eb major with some sort of open voice. I'm just not certain it's worth the ag, or potential conflict with open strings in Eb major. You can chastise me for this if you must...
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jan 10, 2012,
#9
Quote by Captaincranky
@MDC @ Sean, I'm sure you could finger Eb major with some sort of open voice. I'm just not certain it's worth the ag, or potential conflict with open strings in Eb major. You can chastise me for this if you must...

^
-6-11
-4-11-11
-0-0--0
-5-8--13
-6-10-13
---
#10
Quote by Captaincranky

@MDC @ Sean, I'm sure you could finger Eb major with some sort of open voice. I'm just not certain it's worth the ag, or potential conflict with open strings in Eb major. You can chastise me for this if you must...


All I would say to chastise you is learn to read and get your facts straight. You cannot respond appropriately if you don't have the facts of what I said, match what you are claiming.

The thing that I said could not be played in open voicing is a first position (no capo) F, not an Eb.

Even on the triad voicing in first position, all strings that are used in the voicing are fretted. F at the 4th string 3rd fret A on the 3rd string 2nd fret, and C at the 2nd string 1st fret. Since none of these are open strings, this is not an open chord voicing.

If you want to argue a voicing like

1 0 x x 1 x

or 1 0 5 x x x

as an "open F" voicing because of inclusion of an a at the open 5th string, by all means do so, but you'll just appear to be grasping at straws.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but please never try to correct me again, it's better that way. You're 0 for 4 (at least) now. I do this for a living, and you have difficulty with comprehending things as they've been written. It just makes you look bad, and at times stupid with your added comments like "it's not worth it", as if you had a snowballs chance at being right if you decided to pursue the matter. On the contrary, you'd be exposed, discredited and reduced to a joke within the community, but then again, based upon some of your comments, you might wear that as a badge of honor.

Look, I know you know at least some theory, but I think you have a tendency to stand your ground and fight to the death when you're wrong, (and go on the attack of someone that's right??!!) and that seriously diminishes whatever intelligence, and thoughtfulness that you show here in other facets of your writing. To your credit, I no longer think of you as a troll. I believe you are sincere, if not snide and over inflated at times. Unless you mean it in humor, in which case I'm completely missing the joke here.

But, I think your arrogance gets in the way of any real gut level meaningful contributions that you might otherwise make if you dropped the act.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jan 10, 2012,
#11
Quote by Sean0913
All I would say to chastise you is learn to read and get your facts straight. You cannot respond appropriately if you don't have the facts of what I said, match what you are claiming.

The thing that I said could not be played in open voicing is a first position (no capo) F, not an Eb.

Even on the triad voicing in first position, all strings that are used in the voicing are fretted. F at the 4th string 3rd fret A on the 3rd string 2nd fret, and C at the 2nd string 1st fret. Since none of these are open strings, this is not an open chord voicing.

If you want to argue a voicing like

1 0 x x 1 x

or 1 0 5 x x x


as an "open F" voicing because of inclusion of an a at the open 5th string, by all means do so, but you'll just appear to be grasping at straws.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but please never try to correct me again, it's better that way. You're 0 for 4 (at least) now. I do this for a living, and you have difficulty with comprehending things as they've been written. It just makes you look bad, and at times stupid with your added comments like "it's not worth it", as if you had a snowballs chance at being right if you decided to pursue the matter. On the contrary, you'd be exposed, discredited and reduced to a joke within the community, but then again, based upon some of your comments, you might wear that as a badge of honor.

Look, I know you know at least some theory, but I think you have a tendency to stand your ground and fight to the death when you're wrong, (and go on the attack of someone that's right??!!) and that seriously diminishes whatever intelligence, and thoughtfulness that you show here in other facets of your writing. To your credit, I no longer think of you as a troll. I believe you are sincere, if not snide and over inflated at times. Unless you mean it in humor, in which case I'm completely missing the joke here.

But, I think your arrogance gets in the way of any real gut level meaningful contributions that you might otherwise make if you dropped the act.

Best,

Sean
Sean, I'm not trying to correct you about F Major "open", when I say the key of Eb major is better served by using a capo, either on the 1st or the 3rd fret. I said Eb major was a bit inconvenient as an "open voice. I define "open position", as chords confined to fingerings between the 1 & 3rd frets, with open strings in the voices. As to F major, "open" (intentional misnomer), my description of it is as follows:

Quote by Captaincranky
A capo on the third fret is used quite commonly in country music, in order to access the keys of F major, and Bb Major.

I'll give you the open voices first, then the capoed values. These are in I,IV, V scale degrees:

Key of F Major: F= Barre @ 1st fret, Bb also barre @ 1st fret with A Major open voice, C open.
I frankly don't see where my post differs with, or tries to alter anything you posted.

With that said, you've just done the very same thing you accused me of. So whatever personal observations you just made of me, I think we can draw some very simple conclusions.

1. You're trying to get even. And trust me we are.

2. Your own reading interpretation skills are not what you are imagining they are.

3. It takes one to know one. (Juvenile, but appropriate to this instance).

Quote by mdc
^
-6-11
-4-11-11
-0-0--0
-5-8--13
-6-10-13
---


I'm also aware that:

15-14-0-0-15-15 is G Major "open".

I play it that way sometimes to be "cute".

As would be 15-14-0-0-0-15, or maybe X-X-0-0-0-7 (or 10).

I hope I've got the guitar "right side up" in those tabs. If not, reverse them, and bear with me, I'm left handed.

And I would define those "open" voices you've given more as position chords, with open string drones. But, right or wrong, that's just me.

Forgive me, where are my manners?
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jan 10, 2012,
#12
Quote by Captaincranky
@MDC @ Sean, I'm sure you could finger Eb major with some sort of open voice.

I tabbed those out cuz you mentioned that, rather than "position". Closed, open or dropped, meh, depends on how you want place the voices in SATB.

Anyway, and this ain't gonna go down well, but wtf, every now and then I come out with shitty comments, usually when you're around, but here goes...

Capos are for pussies. Much in the same way that Jeff beck said "Picks are for fairies."

If your chord knowledge really is the shit, then you don't need a capo.

The only time I'd use a capo is if I wanted to compose a piece of music (rhythm part) with an African vibe to it. That musical culture is well known for the use of a capo right up near the 10th to 12th frets.

Ever listen to Paul Simon?
#13
Quote by mdc
Anyway, and this ain't gonna go down well, but wtf, every now and then I come out with shitty comments, usually when you're around, but here goes...

Well, thanks for not holding back on my account
Quote by mdc
Capos are for pussies. Much in the same way that Jeff beck said "Picks are for fairies."
Hard to tell out of context, what the intention was., condescension or more tongue in cheek.
Quote by mdc
If your chord knowledge really is the shit, then you don't need a capo.
Need, want, like, and use, are really 4 different qualities, now aren't they?

Quote by mdc
The only time I'd use a capo is if I wanted to compose a piece of music (rhythm part) with an African vibe to it. That musical culture is well known for the use of a capo right up near the 10th to 12th frets.
Then here's your big opportunity to do something for the advancement of music and humanity, in one fell swoop. Go hop on a boat, and introduce the mandolin to Sub-Saharan Africa.

My ear is crappy though, to this day, I can't figure out if David Linley has the guitar capoed, (if at all), on 6 or 11 when he plays, "Call it a Loan". That particular tune doesn't have an "African" influence, but rather a "Jackson Browne" influence. So, it may not be germane to this discussion anyway.

Quote by mdc
Ever listen to Paul Simon?
In the "& Garfunkel era", yes. In the context of, "look how trendy I am by having real African musicians in my band, playing marginally interesting music, with an ostensibly African influence"? No, not really.

What you call, "shitty comments", shouldn't be wasted on me, but rather saved, at the very minimum, for Brad Paisely, Peter Townshend, and slew of other number one hit makers, who really need to be straightened out more than I do.

Well, having withstood this onslaught, I'm off to play around with Bad Finger's "Baby Blue". I'll attempt to suck 'em back inside me, since I'll be using a 5 string (drop "D"), capo, in order to be able to play the opening riff as a bass line, the way all of us pussies would.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jan 10, 2012,
#14
I play mostly country. So I play with a capo in quite a bit of songs. I do see most of the chords I'm playing could be barred instead (obviously with some practice), however capo makes it much easier for me so I'll stick with it for now.

So basically for each fret up the capo goes, it changes the note a 1/2 step up? Is that right?
Last edited by SouthFL79 at Jan 10, 2012,
#15
And while I'm still asking questions, is there any situation where you HAVE to use a capo? Whereas the note/chord couldn't be played without it?
#16
Quote by Captaincranky
Sean, I'm not trying to correct you about F Major "open", when I say the key of Eb major is better served by using a capo, either on the 1st or the 3rd fret. I said Eb major was a bit inconvenient as an "open voice. I define "open position", as chords confined to fingerings between the 1 & 3rd frets, with open strings in the voices. As to F major, "open" (intentional misnomer), my description of it is as follows:

I frankly don't see where my post differs with, or tries to alter anything you posted.

With that said, you've just done the very same thing you accused me of. So whatever personal observations you just made of me, I think we can draw some very simple conclusions.

1. You're trying to get even. And trust me we are.

2. Your own reading interpretation skills are not what you are imagining they are.

3. It takes one to know one. (Juvenile, but appropriate to this instance).


1. Not trying to get even, but dissuade you from calling me out as if I've been wrong. Overkill, maybe, I'll grant you that

2. I don't know about this one, because you've NOW clarified what you meant. No where in your "@Sean" did your open Eb comment indicate that you were reasoning that's why you'd capo 3. If it had, I would have readily agreed with you.

@ Sean, I'm just not certain it's worth the ag, or potential conflict with open strings in Eb major. You can chastise me for this if you must...

I didn't gather that you were referring to the use of a capo, context wise; rather it seemed like you were directing it to me (and mdc) as if I'd made some "statement" regarding an Eb, and the only clarification I had posted in my initial response was regarding an F Major not being an open chord. That's why I responded in kind. (See what happens when I get called out)? I was conditioned to expect more.

In fact, based upon your clarification about using capos in the latest response, I wholly agree with you. I'm in my 40's and I'm more interested in preserving my hands, than I am at contorting them to prove I can play a chord in a certain way. I'm a big fan of capos. As a wanna be singer/songwriter, I use them all the time when I write and perform, without a single qualm. I could care less how I'm seen, I'm not there to play to impress anyone with my "global reach" in terms of fingering prowess.

That said, it's beginning to look like that you and I probably agree far more than we disagree, and this may be a proverbial case of "starting things off on the wrong foot". With that in mind, and because I do largely respect most of what you write, I'd like to extend the olive branch of peace, and let's start over with a clean slate.

How's that sound to you?

Best,

Sean
#17
Quote by SouthFL79
I play mostly country. So I play with a capo in quite a bit of songs. I do see most of the chords I'm playing could be barred instead (obviously with some practice), however capo makes it much easier for me so I'll stick with it for now.

So basically for each fret up the capo goes, it changes the note a 1/2 step up? Is that right?
Yes! And there's no shame in it. Some of country's biggest hit makers do it, and not by virtue of necessity.

The point I've been trying to get across is to try and envision the I, IV, V chords in a key played open, and then envision the open chord shapes that would enable the SAME key, at another fret. This is capo "102", and it's a common usage for a capo in country music.

In other words, sometimes a capo might be used because the song is in F major,and the guy on the pedal steel is using the F neck.

Another "folkie" use for a capo, is so two guitars can play the same chords, in the same key at different frets. The way the chords are "voiced" is completely different, and it yields quite a rich sound.

For example, A song in C major; guitar 1 plays, Cmaj (I), Fmaj (IV), and Gmaj (V).

Guitar 2 (capoed @ 5) plays Cmaj (G open which is now C), Fmaj (C open which is now Fmaj) and finally Gmaj (D open, which now becomes G). So this guy's playing G, C, D as open chord forms.

You count in up exactly as you understand it, (1 fret = 1/2 step raise in key). But, the capo isn't always specifically used for that reason alone.

In another sense, a capo can function as an, "alternate tuning". In standard tuning, the open strings are tuned to values mostly found in keys with sharps. (Yes, I'm aware there are exceptions).

If you decide to play in Db, a capo can change the open tuning to notes found in that key. The net result is, whether you play open or at positions, if you hit an open string, either accidentally or on purpose, it's much more likely for the open string to be a note in the key.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Jan 10, 2012,
#18
Great points, Capitan!

For an awesome example of this amazing Open/capo arrangement, look no further than Jim Croce and Maury Muehleisen. Maury is one of the most underrated guitarists of that era. You can get an entire musical education studying his works!

Best,

Sean