#1
Hello,

I have a little question for you about legato:

On any schema of a diatonic scale, when ascending (which is normally done by pull-off), should we move the fingers by block (ie three fingers at once) or simply a kind of hammer in reverse in fact (but you will tell me the opposite of the hammers is the pull-off, but it's not exactly what I mean here is not to come and pull the string as to pull off)?

For me, try going to move very quickly each time block of 3, in addition to taking the right position (distance from one fret each time etc. ..) it's almost impossible when I these kinds of hammer upside, it allows me to go fast and have good sound.

These hammers in reverse, in fact, I make them like this: I hit with my little finger (for example), then as soon as I removed my finger, I just hit it with my ring finger, and so is the index. It's really when I remove the finger that the other finger takes its place so as not to ring the string. (we do agree, this example is for the ascent).

I watched many videos, but when they go very quickly, I can not really see what they do, either by block or as I said.

Thank you in advance.

ps : sorry for my bad english, I'm french.
#2
I think doing hammer-ons is more common when ascending.
Anyways, hammer-on and pull-off isn't actually an opposite of eachother, since when you do a pull-off you can't just lift the finger, since that would result in the next note being hard to hear. Instead, you kind of have to pull the string either up or down to make tension that will be released when your finger is no longer touching the string.
Not really sure what you meant, but hope it helps.
#3
Thanks.

But ...
My questions can be summarized in one sentence: In a phase "legato hammer and pull off" (not "hammer and hammer" as Brett Garsed), during the pull off, I have to move my fingers by block?
#4
Well, I think you can do either as long as your legato sounds the way you want it to. I 'prefer' the reverse hammer-on method.
Yeah
#5
Quote by Syndromed
Hello,

I have a little question for you about legato:

On any schema of a diatonic scale, when ascending (which is normally done by pull-off), should we move the fingers by block (ie three fingers at once) or simply a kind of hammer in reverse in fact (but you will tell me the opposite of the hammers is the pull-off, but it's not exactly what I mean here is not to come and pull the string as to pull off)?

For me, try going to move very quickly each time block of 3, in addition to taking the right position (distance from one fret each time etc. ..) it's almost impossible when I these kinds of hammer upside, it allows me to go fast and have good sound.

These hammers in reverse, in fact, I make them like this: I hit with my little finger (for example), then as soon as I removed my finger, I just hit it with my ring finger, and so is the index. It's really when I remove the finger that the other finger takes its place so as not to ring the string. (we do agree, this example is for the ascent).

I watched many videos, but when they go very quickly, I can not really see what they do, either by block or as I said.

Thank you in advance.

ps : sorry for my bad english, I'm french.

So basically you prefer to do it Holdsworthian stylie?
#6
I have to move my fingers by block?


No, with pull offs only the finger pulling off and the next note should be fretting. You don't need to move a block of fingers for anything except chords.

That said, I'm not 100% sure what the question is. >.>
#7
Yes that's exactly my question! Thanks!

So no block, I see. But "with pull offs only pulling off the finger and the next note fretting Should Be." there is still a shift by block but with only two fingers right?

Could you give me an example?

So I put my little finger, and when I removed it, my ring finger (or major) frets, and when I removed it (major/annular), my index frets?
It's wrong no ?

Sorry, I don't understand -_-'
#8
If I understand correctly, you're asking - do you have more than one finger fretting while performing a pull off, and the answer is yes. Say you're doing a pull off from 7 to 6, your index may be fretting 6 and your middle fretting 7 at the same time, so that when you pull your finger off the string it effectively plucks it so that the already fretted 6 will ring out.

In terms of if you're doing a 3 note run, for example, 13-12-10, personally I have all 3 fretted at once in a "block" and pull off each one. That's probably not entirely correct, it's just the way I learned and I haven't got round to fixing it yet (I think the correct way is to only have the note you're pulling off from and the note you're pulling off to fretted, even if a third note comes in to play).
ESP Horizon FR II (EMG) / Ibanez Prestige RG1570 (DiMarzio Crunch Lab & LiquiFire pickups)
#9
Quote by Freepower
No, with pull offs only the finger pulling off and the next note should be fretting. You don't need to move a block of fingers for anything except chords.

That said, I'm not 100% sure what the question is. >.>


I believe he wants to know this:

When playing a legato pattern such as 8-6-5, should you have your first and middle finger and your pinky placed on the fret before you attempt to play this passage, or should you sort of "reverse hammer-on" every note? With the latter method, only one finger would be actually fretting a note when doing legato like that, while the first method entails having three fingers fretting a note before you even play one note. Did that clarify anything at all? English is not my native language xD
Yeah
#10
I think I forgot to mention something important: my problem is when switching string.
When it on one string, there's no problem but when I change string by pull off:

example:
e : 8p 7p 5
b : 8p 7p 5
#11
Quote by Syndromed
Yes that's exactly my question! Thanks!

So no block, I see. But "with pull offs only pulling off the finger and the next note fretting Should Be." there is still a shift by block but with only two fingers right?

Could you give me an example?

So I put my little finger, and when I removed it, my ring finger (or major) frets, and when I removed it (major/annular), my index frets?
It's wrong no ?

Sorry, I don't understand -_-'


You're doing fine!

Just as your remove your little finger, your ring finger arrives, just as it pulls off your index frets.

So, you don't need to shift 2 fingers at once to get there, you just need there to be a moment where 2 fingers are down together.

In terms of if you're doing a 3 note run, for example, 13-12-10, personally I have all 3 fretted at once in a "block" and pull off each one. That's probably not entirely correct, it's just the way I learned and I haven't got round to fixing it yet


This can be fine for basic legato stuff but anything harder than that and you really need to unstick your fingers.
#12
Quote by Freepower
You're doing fine!

Just as your remove your little finger, your ring finger arrives, just as it pulls off your index frets.

So, you don't need to shift 2 fingers at once to get there, you just need there to be a moment where 2 fingers are down together.



This can be fine for basic legato stuff but anything harder than that and you really need to unstick your fingers.


Ah! super! thank you, I think I do that, I am reassured! not so bad habit!

But then what is the difference between the method where only the hammers? the index does not stay right?

Infact when I do I pull off in this way (when changing string): my little finger frets (and I give a stroke of pick) and then as soon as my little finger removed, my ring and my index frets together (well not really but the time between the two is small), so I'm a pull off with my ring finger (because my index is already there).
#13
But then what is the difference between the method where only the hammers? the index does not stay right?


When you use only hammers, you never pull off - there is only ever 1 finger on the fretboard. This requires lots of finger strength and skill.
#14
Quote by Freepower
This can be fine for basic legato stuff but anything harder than that and you really need to unstick your fingers.


I only have sticky fingers like that that for fairly non-stretchy stuff (12h14h16h18t19p18p16p14p12 on the high E for example is just fine), but if I have to do anything wider (such as 12h15h19t22p19p15p12 on the A string which is part of something I'm learning at the moment) my fingers somehow know that there can only really be at maximum 2 on there at a time. So I guess it's not too much of a problem but I wouldn't mind fixing it for those easier runs too.

My tab notation may be a bit weird, don't know, I tend not to read tabs very much. Also they look more impressive written out than they actually are, there's a couple of sneaky taps in there.


Quote by Freepower
When you use only hammers, you never pull off - there is only ever 1 finger on the fretboard. This requires lots of finger strength and skill.


Never really considered this before - sounds quite cool. You can get really agressive sounding trills with it, it kinda sounds more more staccato-ey (though clearly still very much legato) than hammer/pull.. somewhere between alt-picking and hammer/pull.
ESP Horizon FR II (EMG) / Ibanez Prestige RG1570 (DiMarzio Crunch Lab & LiquiFire pickups)
Last edited by llBlackenedll at Jan 11, 2012,
#15
Currently the most challenging legato exercise I can think of is a 1-2-4-3 finger configuration across shapes 2 and 3 of the Eb major scale (3 nps shapes).

When you join those two shapes together you get a 4nps pattern, which you can utilize all 4 fingers, in the 1-2-4-3 permutation. There's 24 permutations in all.

Don't forget to descend also.

-------------------------------------------------------------15-16-20-18
-------------------------------------------------15-16-20-18
-------------------------------------13-15-19-17
-------------------------13-15-18-17
-------------13-15-18-17
-13-15-18-16

If you wanna develop serious pull off technique between the 4th and 3rd fingers, then this is it...

CAUTION: This is intense. Don't over do it.
Last edited by mdc at Jan 11, 2012,
#17
Quote by Freepower
^ an easier way to work your legato permutations - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ICrLfbG9I&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

I would prefer something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo1UOcUUT7s to develop 3/4 strength as well. Best to focus until the fingers are fairly even and then build them all up.


Heh I like those legato permutation exercises, do them every day on my high action guitar (just to make it a bit more of a workout as it seems to do a lot for finger strength). I might change it slightly though as it's great for the permutations in a 4 note block but I wouldn't mind making it a bit stretchier. Don't know why I only just considered doing that...
ESP Horizon FR II (EMG) / Ibanez Prestige RG1570 (DiMarzio Crunch Lab & LiquiFire pickups)
#18
Quote by Freepower
^ an easier way to work your legato permutations - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ICrLfbG9I&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

I would prefer something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo1UOcUUT7s to develop 3/4 strength as well. Best to focus until the fingers are fairly even and then build them all up.

It's a nice exercise. Also, I think applying it musically is good, hence the shape I tabbed. That shape would also help with this...

I might change it slightly though as it's great for the permutations in a 4 note block but I wouldn't mind making it a bit stretchier.
#19
Quote by mdc
It's a nice exercise. Also, I think applying it musically is good, hence the shape I tabbed. That shape would also help with this...

Heh, that's why I've cut down a lot on exercises as they're generally dull and amusical (though beneficial nonetheless) and have been putting much more focus on learning songs or parts of songs by ear. Because when a part of a song is really hard anyway, it's going to do you as much good as any exercise, plus is has musical context. The legato part I'm currently working up to is:


--------------------------------------------------------------------h12h15h19t22p19p15p12---------
-----------------h12h15h19t22p19p15p12--------------------------------------------------------h15-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------t22p21p17p14h17h21t22----------------------------------------
-h12h15h19t22-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seems to be doing my tapping and stretchy legato a lot of good.
ESP Horizon FR II (EMG) / Ibanez Prestige RG1570 (DiMarzio Crunch Lab & LiquiFire pickups)
#21
Quote by mdc
Fives?

Thought you might recognise it :P I think that guy is actually a wizard. I really like listening to his music - I don't often listen to just solo guitarists but I find his stuff really interesting and he seems to use speed quite tastefully. Anyway, the nuts tapping parts are a bit beyond me at the moment (especially given that tapping isn't something I've invested a lot of time in) but learning really hard stuff, even if it's at slower speeds, I've found to be a really effective way to improve quite quickly. Plus working it out has really helped my ear.

And, er, back to the original point - on the lower strings, you really CANNOT do that with al your fingers laid down the whole time. Unless you're blessed with crazy hands.
ESP Horizon FR II (EMG) / Ibanez Prestige RG1570 (DiMarzio Crunch Lab & LiquiFire pickups)
Last edited by llBlackenedll at Jan 11, 2012,
#22
No, it's nearly impossible, especially on the A and D strings. It is possible though, once your fingers and muscles become accustomed to this exercise.

Remove the second finger at the same time you hammer with the 4th. Then, when you pull off from the 4th to the 3rd, your first finger will be lifting, ready to move on to the next string...

Edit: Yeah, the hardest thing about that tapping part, I find, is keeping the index finger steady, as it's the mute.

Also, making a smooth transition up and down to accommodate the chord changes.

The important thing to remember though, is that it's just one motor skill. Once you've got it, you've got it.
Last edited by mdc at Jan 11, 2012,
#23
Quote by mdc
Yeah, the hardest thing about that tapping part, I find, is keeping the index finger steady, as it's the mute.


Ah... crap... hadn't noticed til you pointed it out. Speed reduction time again!

Funny thing is, as fast/difficult as that bit is, it's still easier than the tapping bit that comes somewhere before it as that has the descend on the A string as well as the ascend (on the album version, anyway, on his youtube video he doesn't do it and instead appears to do it on the B string).

Also - whenever you and I post in the same thread, I always somehow manage to hijack it. So I've adjusted my user title. Sorry, TS, this got a bit OT...
ESP Horizon FR II (EMG) / Ibanez Prestige RG1570 (DiMarzio Crunch Lab & LiquiFire pickups)
Last edited by llBlackenedll at Jan 11, 2012,
#24
Quote by llBlackenedll
Heh, that's why I've cut down a lot on exercises as they're generally dull and amusical (though beneficial nonetheless) and have been putting much more focus on learning songs or parts of songs by ear. Because when a part of a song is really hard anyway, it's going to do you as much good as any exercise, plus is has musical context.


While it's true exercises don't have to be musically dull, a good exercise should do you more good technically than almost any musical line - that's whole point. If you can improve your technique as well with something musical then you should practice the musical thing.

Any amusical exercise I recommend is much better physically than any equivalent musical passage I'm aware of.

(Obviously learning songs by ear is more important than exercises full stop, just worth clarifying!)
#25
I looked a little your exercises, it's true they are very well done!
I will integrate them into my exercises.
But I think they are a bit short is not it?
Last edited by Syndromed at Jan 12, 2012,
#26
That's the whole point.

Short, very effective, easy to remember. If an exercise is long, it probably doesn't focus on anything specific, or it's bad at focusing. If you just want to improve in general, play lots, jam lots, drill the basics.

If there are certain skills you want to improve quickly, use effective exercises.
#27
I see!

I'm gonna take "Betcha Can't Pick This" and make a tab in GP, and practice it a lot.
(I take alse your legato permutation gp tab, very good)!

I don't find a string crossing exercise but your exercise is really good so ... I take it ^^

But to improve "speed", just "speed", what is the best exercise ? just doing scales ? (infact just the left hand).
#28
But to improve "speed", just "speed", what is the best exercise ? just doing scales ? (infact just the left hand).


You can't improve speed - you can only improve your technique, which will allow you to play fast.

Making each movement as small and precise as possible, making sure there's no tension in any part of your body, lots of practice, developing finger strength, developing all co-ordinations of the fingers... that's all part of developing "speed".

Just try and get better at guitar, and speed will come.
#29
Ah! So even if I improve my string crossing, I improve speed in the same time ?
So, a exercise of each technique is enough?

And what is the difference between "String crossing" and "String skipping" ?

What do you think about Rock Discipline's exercises ? Good ? Bad ?
All my exercises come frome this method.

Thanks!
#30
Ah! So even if I improve my string crossing, I improve speed in the same time ?


Improving your string crossing means you'll be able to cross strings faster - so yes.

So, a exercise of each technique is enough?


Definitely not - there's a lot of different aspects to each technique, there's no way to fit everything into one exercise - and if you could, why not just practice music instead? The exercise would be so long and just cover the same stuff anyway.
And what is the difference between "String crossing" and "String skipping" ?


String skipping involves skipping strings - eg, going E to D you skip the A string.

What do you think about Rock Discipline's exercises ? Good ? Bad ?


Good, but I don't like them. I write exercises to my taste.
#31
Ok, I see, thanks very much!

I don't mean "all in one exercise" but "one exercise of string crossing" "another exercise of string skipping" etc ... ^^

I do both (exercise + technical song that I like), I think it's a good way to improve.
But for you, should spend more time on exercise or learning a song? (but always do both).

I'm French so I can't really understand your video about when practice exercise, so if you could explain to me ... you'll make me happy
#32
I don't mean "all in one exercise" but "one exercise of string crossing" "another exercise of string skipping" etc ... ^^


Sure, this would be good. It's pretty much what I do.

I do both (exercise + technical song that I like), I think it's a good way to improve.
But for you, should spend more time on exercise or learning a song? (but always do both).


If there's something you really want to do to improve your technique, it's best to do exercises for that. For almost everything else, it's best to learn songs and work on basics.