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#1
There are things that everyone on this board knows to be true, but which no one has ever tested. The purpose of this build is to test some of them. Everyone knows that Pine is too weak to be used for a guitar neck. But I don't think so. I've worked with pine many times, and even I know it's not as strong as some of the expensive hardwoods commonly used for guitar necks. But I believe it's plenty strong enough. So one of the things I will be testing is whether pine is strong enough for a neck. Another is that pine is not tough enough to be used for a fretboard. I disagree, and will be trying to prove that it is indeed tough enough. The third (and last for now - if you have any more suggestions for things to test, post them here) thing that I'm going to test is that a bolt-on neck pocket is too small for a set neck. I've already disproved this with my first build, for which I glued a neck into a bolt-on size (actually, smaller than most bolt on pockets) neck pocket. It has survived 2 years (strung up with 11's and tuned to E standard) so far without even any cracking in the paint around the pocket, so I'm going to take it to another level with this build by having no pocket at all. I will take the neck blank and just butt it up to the end of the body. I can't see why everyone believes this myth btw, since everyone knows that a proper glue joint is stronger than the wood around it, so assuming you glue it up right you're just building a neck through with a neck pocket sized strip of stronger wood in the middle any time you ever glue a neck in.

Btw, I intend to string this thing up with 11's and keep it tuned to E standard if it works out right.

Here's one showing where I'm at right now. The body is rough cut to shape, but I've got a ton of sanding to do still.



And one showing how I've arranged the grain in the layers of the neck (the side that the fretboard will be attached to is down right now) to maximize my chances of having this work.

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Last edited by DuctTapeNinja at Jan 12, 2012,
#2
I don't know anybody who actually claims what you say this myth is. Certainly you can make a guitar like this, but it's just less optimal than a bigger pocket with more surface area for glue. Anybody who's played an old SG with the small pocket can attest to the detriment to tuning stability and sustain, especially after 30+ years of string tension.

Still - cool build. I'll be interested to see how it turns out. I think you should go whole hog and cut the neck in half at the 12th fret and glue it back together (before truss rod installation, obviously).
#3
Quote by Roc8995
I don't know anybody who actually claims what you say this myth is. Certainly you can make a guitar like this, but it's just less optimal than a bigger pocket with more surface area for glue. Anybody who's played an old SG with the small pocket can attest to the detriment to tuning stability and sustain, especially after 30+ years of string tension.

Admittedly, I haven't been around much over the past 2 years, but when I was a reg here it came up every time someone set a neck.
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#5
Quote by Roc8995
Anybody who's played an old SG with the small pocket can attest to the detriment to tuning stability and sustain, especially after 30+ years of string tension.

This +1, I've reset the necks on a couple SG's where the string tension slowly pulled the neck outta the shallow and short pocket over the years. Gibson finally figured out what a tenon was and extended the pocket and you don't see that problem (as much) anymore on SG's.

I really don't see a pine fretboard holding up very at all over a few years haha, you can dent it with your fingernail with ease. It's gonna attain that "natural scallop" mojo to it pretty quick . And as far as a neck.. I dunno. It's not a very stiff timber and likes to twist and bend from compression. It's a good thing you're laminating in alternate grain directions.

Regardless, good luck and I'll be keeping an eye on this
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#6
I don't see a problem with the first two myths you're addressing, but I'm quite sure you'll run into issues with the third one


As people have mentioned, a smaller neck pocket when glued in will eventually shift.. but just butting the end of the neck up against the body is just asking for trouble.

Sure it's true that a proper glue joint will usually hold stronger than the wood around it, but this isn't a proper glue joint. you're gluing end grain to end grain, which is going to hold nowhere near as well as a proper joint.. even a smaller bolt on size neck pocket will shift over time as we've seen, but this is a smaller surface area with with pieces of wood glued together in a non-ideal way
I do understand the merit of trying to disprove certain things (and I think the neck itself will be alright, proving points one and two), but I really have no faith in attaching the neck that way

even if you still want to try it out though, best of luck
Last edited by james4 at Jan 12, 2012,
#7
Quote by james4
I don't see a problem with the first two myths you're addressing, but I'm quite sure you'll run into issues with the third one


As people have mentioned, a smaller neck pocket when glued in will eventually shift.. but just butting the end of the neck up against the body is just asking for trouble.

Sure it's true that a proper glue joint will usually hold stronger than the wood around it, but this isn't a proper glue joint. you're gluing end grain to end grain, which is going to hold nowhere near as well as a proper joint.. even a smaller bolt on size neck pocket will shift over time as we've seen, but this is a smaller surface area with with pieces of wood glued together in a non-ideal way
I do understand the merit of trying to disprove certain things (and I think the neck itself will be alright, proving points one and two), but I really have no faith in attaching the neck that way

even if you still want to try it out though, best of luck

And that's why I'm trying it. Everyone says it's a bad idea, and I've had luck with 'bad' ideas before. You're probably right, but no one's tried it, so no one knows for sure.
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#8
+10 for your attitude.

I've got a big old piece of pine and was dreaming (sure, I usually say planning, but today I'm a realist) of using it for a body and making a neckthrough using something else for the neck. If your experiment passes, maybe I'll make it all out of pine?

I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures.
#9
orrr, lots of people have tried it. all failing.. so they've moved onto ideas that work.

#skeptic.

im sure the neck itself will be alright..if ugly.. but structurally alright..

but the way you are gluing it onto the body. wont work.


and even if you do end up proving us wrong in the short term....still doesn't mean its a good way to do things.
#10
I know pine can be strong, but not that strong. I used white pine on my amp head build, without dove tail joints, and it's pretty sturdy, but it does dent easily. Pine also has a very weak tinsel strength....maybe using a titanium truss rod would help, but it'll be all dented up pretty quick.

Anyways, interesting build, thinking outside of the box is my favorite thing ever.
#12
Quote by Jason Jillard
and even if you do end up proving us wrong in the short term....still doesn't mean its a good way to do things.


+1
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#13
At least do a dowel or something. A guitar neck is such a terrible application for a butt joint. You're joining end grain to end grain, the glue joint will NOT be stronger than the wood.

How long has that pine been allowed to dry? Some pine can be pretty nasty to work with and change shape before your eyes as your working on it. You might have serious stability issues with it used as a neck. If it's dried wood, it'll probably be fine though.

I wish you were just busting one myth at a time. Make an all pine guitar with traditional construction methods.
Last edited by earthwormjim at Jan 13, 2012,
#14
Quote by RebuildIt
+10 for your attitude.

I've got a big old piece of pine and was dreaming (sure, I usually say planning, but today I'm a realist) of using it for a body and making a neckthrough using something else for the neck. If your experiment passes, maybe I'll make it all out of pine?

I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures.

I already built a body out of pine for another build. I have no doubts at all about pine for the body. For my first build (the coffin) I built a test body out of pine (and slapped the crap neck off my old Epi LP 100 onto it) to make sure I was happy with the dimensions/proportions/etc before I moved on to the expensive mahogany. It worked great as a body (despite a few mistakes) and actually sounded good and it was all pine, not just a neckthrough of expensive wood and wings of pine. It will dent easier than tougher woods like oak or hard maple though.

Quote by earthwormjim
At least do a dowel or something. A guitar neck is such a terrible application for a butt joint. You're joining end grain to end grain, the glue joint will NOT be stronger than the wood.

How long has that pine been allowed to dry? Some pine can be pretty nasty to work with and change shape before your eyes as your working on it. You might have serious stability issues with it used as a neck. If it's dried wood, it'll probably be fine though.

I wish you were just busting one myth at a time. Make an all pine guitar with traditional construction methods.

I tell you what, if the butt joint fails (which I doubt - but that's why we're testing) I'll retrofit the body for a traditional neck joint and make up another neck.
Quote by Øttər
Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
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Last edited by DuctTapeNinja at Jan 13, 2012,
#15
why don't you just try a butt joint on a piece of scrap wood, roughly the same dimensions. That way you don't waste your neck blank. You may want to google glue tests, I belive the woodworking magazines frequently do glue test and give the breaking points. One joint is frequently a butt joint. That way you may know ahead of time if this will work.
#16
Quote by DuctTapeNinja
It will dent easier than tougher woods like oak or hard maple though...I tell you what, if the butt joint fails (which I doubt - but that's why we're testing) I'll retrofit the body for a traditional neck joint and make up another neck.

The denting property of it is gonna be the trouble with using pine for a fretboard.. I think you're going to run into trouble when fretting it too, with the frets being pressed too far into the wood or them backing out when the pine decompresses.

Asking a butt joint to hold up to a moment of 70ish lbs across a 20" or so length is asking a lot. I pulled the 70lb number outta my ass, I have no idea what string tension at Standard tuning actually is
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[thread="1166208"]Gibsons Historic Designs[/thread]
#17
Quote by Flux'D
Asking a butt joint to hold up to a moment of 70ish lbs across a 20" or so length is asking a lot. I pulled the 70lb number outta my ass, I have no idea what string tension at Standard tuning actually is
It's been a while, but if I remember right it's actually just over 100lbs. But I think it'll take it if I get a quality butt joint.
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Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#18
im speaking from experience. its not enough.

the first empress didn't even have enough surface area because of the heeless thing. it broke.

sure, i sat on it by accident..

but.. i can full out stand on my guitars with proper set necks. (i don't do this often, but i have to prove a point)

i just don't get the point of putting so much time into something just to try and prove a point.

build something you can love for the rest of your life instead. if its pine.. so be it. but do yourself proud.
#19
Quote by DuctTapeNinja
It's been a while, but if I remember right it's actually just over 100lbs. But I think it'll take it if I get a quality butt joint.


11's tuned to standard E it's around 120 pounds with a 25.5" scale.
#20
Quote by Jason Jillard
im speaking from experience. its not enough.

the first empress didn't even have enough surface area because of the heeless thing. it broke.

sure, i sat on it by accident..

but.. i can full out stand on my guitars with proper set necks. (i don't do this often, but i have to prove a point)

i just don't get the point of putting so much time into something just to try and prove a point.

build something you can love for the rest of your life instead. if its pine.. so be it. but do yourself proud.

I've built 2 guitars already, and I will love them both for the rest of my life. I have no intention of this guitar replacing my favorite. (Though if everything works out and it plays/sounds great who knows) But I've reached that point where I'm curious enough about the limits that I'm willing to put a little work into testing them. This is not my first build, and it's certainly not my last (heck, it's not even the only one I'm doing right now), so there's still time to come for building more guitars that I love or will profit off of.

Btw, have you actually stood on one of your guitars without breaking it or are you just blowing smoke? If you have, do you have pics? I'd love to see that.
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Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
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It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#21
Quote by DuctTapeNinja


Btw, have you actually stood on one of your guitars without breaking it or are you just blowing smoke? If you have, do you have pics? I'd love to see that.



yeah, i'm a total phony.




that's not even a multi-lam neck. and it doesn't have a scarf joint.

i weigh 145 lbs


so.. point proven?


also it took my sister like 8 tries to finally take the picture -.- jeez learn to use a camera lol
#22
that... is just impressive
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#23
HAHAHA Jason. This is why you are one of my favourite builder :P
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#25
Nice, though I can see that you're putting more weight on the foot that's over the body. I at least expected you to support the neck under the 1st fret to save the head/neck transition weak point though. I'm not sure I'd trust my guitars to survive how you did it.


I'm still going to do this build as planned anyway.
Quote by Øttər
Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#26
Quote by DuctTapeNinja
Nice, though I can see that you're putting more weight on the foot that's over the body. I at least expected you to support the neck under the 1st fret to save the head/neck transition weak point though..



wow, really? you can visibly see the bend in the neck. and the guitar body is normally off the ground when lying down, due to the neck angle and headstock.

in the picture it is flat on the ground now.

soo.. theres not much else to be said
#27
Quote by Jason Jillard
wow, really? you can visibly see the bend in the neck. and the guitar body is normally off the ground when lying down, due to the neck angle and headstock.

in the picture it is flat on the ground now.

soo.. theres not much else to be said

I'm just saying that it's an easy pic to 'fake', and there is evidence of shenanigans.

After seeing your pic, I had to try it myself so I grabbed one of my old cheapos (an Epi Les Paul 100 - who cares if it breaks lol) and stood on it. For the record, I weigh 265 lbs. Here's a pic of that: (If you need to see it bigger, click on it)



And of course, one showing the space created underneath by the headstock/neck angle



After that, actually, I don't find that nearly as impressive as I did when you first posted it.
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Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#28
Yeh, but I bet your butt jointed pine won't take it, or a bolt size pocket set neck
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#29
Quote by GABarrie
Yeh, but I bet your butt jointed pine won't take it, or a bolt size pocket set neck
I bet it does.
Quote by Øttər
Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#31
Quote by Jason Jillard
this is the point i was proving. its not jsut my guitars, it should be ANY set neck guitar.

lets see you do that to your pine guitar.


I want video of it. ^.^
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2x12 Cab w/ WGS v30 / gt65
GFS Tuner
TS-9 (Keeley ish mod)
Dunlop GCB-95 Wah truebypass
ICP Gstring Decimator
#33
Quote by Jason Jillard
this is the point i was proving. its not jsut my guitars, it should be ANY set neck guitar.

lets see you do that to your pine guitar.

I will try it and post pics whether it takes it or not when I finish it. But after seeing how easily the crappy LP100 took it I have absolutely no doubt that this one will.
Quote by Øttər
Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#34
Quote by DuctTapeNinja
I will try it and post pics whether it takes it or not when I finish it. But after seeing how easily the crappy LP100 took it I have absolutely no doubt that this one will.


I think you're missing the point though, your LP100 has a mechanical joint in addition to glue.
#35
Quote by Jason Jillard
we should jsut make a whole thread

'Ultimate Standing on your Guitar Thread.'

most extreme way of doing it wins.

its the new planking.

http://groups.ultimate-guitar.com/guitarstanding/
Quote by Øttər
Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


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#36
Quote by earthwormjim
I think you're missing the point though, your LP100 has a mechanical joint in addition to glue.


But, LP100's have absolutely s*** quality necks. I wasn't expecting the screws to pull out, I was expecting it to break at the head/neck transition. I once broke an LP100 neck by dropping it (just the neck, the body wasn't attached at the time) 3 feet onto carpet. A good butt joint should survive anything a neck of that low quality can survive.
Quote by Øttər
Ninja, I dunno who you are but I like you.... so far....
Quote by Shaggy Shadric
My Teddy bear is God. DO NOT QUESTION MY TEDDY!
Quote by MatrixClaw
It's a good thing I like boobs or I'd be more pissed that you just bumped a 2 week old thread for that


Not part of the Bass Militia
#37
I dont think quality of a neck and quality of wood are the same thing...

Just because the neck is a p.o.s. doesn't mean the wood it is made out of bad. So why would it break at the headstock?


I'ts not about wood quality. Its physics. (I think) A set neck joint is just much more structurally sound than a buttjoint. Just like a piece of quartersawn wood is stronger structurally for a guitar neck than flatsawn from the same tree.
My Gear:
Schecter Hellraiser FR Special.
EpiG400 lefty w/Dimarzio X2N/ Irongear Hot Slag
Peavey 6505+112 (head)
2x12 Cab w/ WGS v30 / gt65
GFS Tuner
TS-9 (Keeley ish mod)
Dunlop GCB-95 Wah truebypass
ICP Gstring Decimator
#38
It's not about the quality, it's still a 1" mahogany/rosewood laminate supporting 250lbs even if it's a Gibson handcarved neck or the Epi 100. They don't select hickory handles for their looks, just just slap an iron tool on the end of it and go to town.

Enough jabbering about theories, where's the progress pics?!
Endorsed by Dean Guitars 07-10
2003 Gibson Flying V w/ Moon Inlay
2006 Fender All-American Partscaster
SVK ELP-C500 Custom

1964 Fender Vibro Champ
1989 Peavey VTM60

[thread="1166208"]Gibsons Historic Designs[/thread]
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