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MrCrimpshrine
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2010
259 IQ
#1
Anarchists and punk rock are usually hand in hand. So is anyone here a fellow anarchist? and if so what are your beliefs for creating a better future in an anarchist society if it were to someday happen?
Paddy McK
Raging Gentleman
Join date: Mar 2009
178 IQ
#2
Never really saw the appeal of anarchy. It sounds pretty stressful
My Soundcloud
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due 07
haaan
Join date: Jun 2006
2,902 IQ
#3
Quote by Paddy McK
Never really saw the appeal of anarchy. It sounds pretty stressful

My opinion on ⒶⒶⒶ is the opposite. I think living in a world free of social, political, and economic domination would be sick.
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#4
Quote by due 07
My opinion on ⒶⒶⒶ is the opposite. I think living in a world free of social, political, and economic domination would be sick.


The issue being that human nature would take advantage of such freedoms and nothing would get accomplished. You need some form of leadership, even on a small scale to organise and stop it from becoming just a shit storm.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



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You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
due 07
haaan
Join date: Jun 2006
2,902 IQ
#5
Quote by ChemicalFire
The issue being that human nature would take advantage of such freedoms and nothing would get accomplished. You need some form of leadership, even on a small scale to organise and stop it from becoming just a shit storm.

Eh, I don't buy into the myth that anarchism=chaos and leadership=organization. Look at anarchist Spain, for example, 'cuz they were hella organized without any real hierarchical power. And lots of anarchist unions and organizations are plenty structured without all that leadership nonsense.

And I'm not completely convinced there's some immutable human nature that isn't determined by social relations and conditions. I guess anarchism (or collectivism or socialism or whatever system wherein people are in charge of their lives) is diametrically opposed to a world that alienates productivity from producers and fetishizes power, but there's no reason to say that's just the way things ought to be forever and always.
Last edited by due 07 at Jan 13, 2012,
I_Pwn
is gonna find you
Join date: Aug 2006
2,803 IQ
#6
To believe in Anarchy I feel like you have to have the utmost faith that all humans are good people. My personal experiences seem to have proven that this is a false notion.
neidnarb11890
so bored with the USA
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#9


I just noticed (or well, it just registered with me as more than a random aesthetic choice) the E & A in "The Exit Bags" the other day. I felt lame for not recognizing it earlier.
bradulator
normcore
Join date: Jul 2007
2,448 IQ
#10
Yeah. anarchy requires faith in humanity and is basically purely idealistic. For that reason it's unrealistic and improbable to ever occur. I hate when people assume that anarchy = chaos and generalize anarchists as violent and all they wanna do is **** errybody and steal things and all that. Alot of my historical influences were proponents of some form of anarchy. I'd identify as an individual anarchist.

So it's a pipedream and is impractical. But i'm a dreamer. WOOOOOOSEXPISTOLSWOOOO
neidnarb11890
so bored with the USA
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#11
Back in high school I used to listen to Crass a lot & think anarchism was rad, but I think that was more 'cuz I was an angsty teenager who hated everyone around me, as opposed to any sort of intellectual interest in politics/economics or whatever.

Nowadays my views are more myopic, and I'm more interested in doing what I want & livin' the life I want than changing society as a whole. I guess I've taken on sort of an apathetic/isolationist view to society, 'cuz I just wanna be outside of society. Sometimes I feel irresponsible becuz of that, but I think I'll come around again when I'm like a real grown up living on my own in society & stuff, as opposed to just chillin' in the comfortable womb of a college campus & my parents' haus. Y'know?

I mean as ideals go, I consider myself to be pretty leftist, although every time I go hang out in the Pit I feel like a god damn reactionary. The whole Marx is rad/God is dead groupthink those cats have going is just a turn off.
Last edited by neidnarb11890 at Jan 13, 2012,
due 07
haaan
Join date: Jun 2006
2,902 IQ
#12
I don't see anarchy as purely idealistic at all 'cuz there have been plenty of successful anarchist or anarchist-inspired societies in recent history (Ukrainian Free Territory and Anarchist Spain being the most notorious afaik) that didn't fail because of internal strife and impractical ideology, but rather they were defeated by outside forces (authoritarian socialists and fascists respectively). Granted these weren't in modern, advanced capitalist societies, but even today the EZLN-controlled areas of Mexico are holding up well, and you'd have to be a real heartless sumbitch to oppose them.

I think it'd be a little lot more difficult to make the transition today with thanks to (a) welfare states (b) ridiculously centralized private power (c) weak organized labor and (d) fanatic militarism. Even in the case of anarchist spain it took decades and decades of dissemination of ideas before anything happened, and that sort of thing is pretty much out of the question in lots of highly developed cappie countries nowadays.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that anarchy itself isn't really idealism, but actually making the transition these days is gonna be nigh on impossible, so I'm gonna sell out and vote for vaguely liberal bourgeois puppet parties. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
Last edited by due 07 at Jan 13, 2012,
neidnarb11890
so bored with the USA
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#13
Also, what's up with Crass doing deluxe reissues of all their albums? That's pretty much took whatever respect I still had for them on an ideological basis & flushed it down the toilet.
lolmnt
Earth of the Butt
Join date: Sep 2006
4,159 IQ
#14
I don't think there's a long enough example of anarchism in real society to see it as anything other than idealistic.

Of course I only have limited knowledge about the subject, so yah know.
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neidnarb11890
so bored with the USA
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#15
I get & sorta agree with what due's sayin' about it not being purely idealistic, but it is largely idealistic. Like, it's so far outside of traditional political discourse. Which is largely bullshit anyway. But, I mean, beyond the bullshit there's real problems in the world, and it's not like you can just dismantle the system & everything will be fine & dandy. Ideals are cool, but in the real world ya gotta do what ya gotta do, ie sell out & vote for vaguely liberal bourgeois puppet parties. ¯\_(ツ_/¯

And maybe voting doesn't change anything, but I never really got what anarchists achieve by not voting, other than being even farther removed from contemporary political discourse. And I mean, if you wanna be outside of society, more power to ya, but if you wanna change society, I think that change ought to & has to come from within. Otherwise you get lame ass shit like Soviet Russia. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
bradulator
normcore
Join date: Jul 2007
2,448 IQ
#16
Quote by due 07
I don't see anarchy as purely idealistic at all 'cuz there have been plenty of successful anarchist or anarchist-inspired societies in recent history (Ukrainian Free Territory and Anarchist Spain being the most notorious afaik) that didn't fail because of internal strife and impractical ideology, but rather they were defeated by outside forces (authoritarian socialists and fascists respectively). Granted these weren't in modern, advanced capitalist societies, but even today the EZLN-controlled areas of Mexico are holding up well, and you'd have to be a real heartless sumbitch to oppose them.

I think it'd be a little lot more difficult to make the transition today with thanks to (a) welfare states (b) ridiculously centralized private power (c) weak organized labor and (d) fanatic militarism. Even in the case of anarchist spain it took decades and decades of dissemination of ideas before anything happened, and that sort of thing is pretty much out of the question in lots of highly developed cappie countries nowadays.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that anarchy itself isn't really idealism, but actually making the transition these days is gonna be nigh on impossible, so I'm gonna sell out and vote for vaguely liberal bourgeois puppet parties. ¯\_(ツ_/¯


I'd say it's definitely idealistic. It requires everybody to be 100% tolerant and willing to sacrifice their good for the good of others. That is unsustainable. But I guess it depends on what kind of anarchic society you have in mind.

Regardless, being idealistic doesn't mean that it's not worth the effort at all.

EDIT: and for the record I think of something "heavenly" when I picture an anarchic world in my head, so that's why I contend that it's incredibly idealistic.
Last edited by bradulator at Jan 13, 2012,
StreetLight3989
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2007
1,950 IQ
#17
I love the idea of anarchism but I don't think human nature would let it work. I'm not that educated on anarchism, but that's just my opinion.
I'm the same as I was when I was six years old
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I don't really feel anything
cemges
Banned
Join date: Sep 2011
822 IQ
#18
Logic is to self behave. Just when humans are enough good to not need any higher authority to behave itself and create itself an order, then that's anarchizm. But it is also an enemy to authority. Here religion is the biggest enemy of anarchism. Just learn to behave yourself so you won't need a senior. No cops, no prime minister, no army, no weapons, no god.
bradulator
normcore
Join date: Jul 2007
2,448 IQ
#19
Quote by cemges
Logic is to self behave. Just when humans are enough good to not need any higher authority to behave itself and create itself an order, then that's anarchizm. But it is also an enemy to authority. Here religion is the biggest enemy of anarchism. Just learn to behave yourself so you won't need a senior. No cops, no prime minister, no army, no weapons, no god.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

Religion is not always an enemy
neidnarb11890
so bored with the USA
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#22
Quote by charliezard!
This is dumb.

Not as dumb as it'd be if it was in the Pit.
sargasm
1977 and we are going mad
Join date: May 2003
1,817 IQ
#23
Shitstorm in 5... 4...

I'm an anarchist of some kind. But I probably won't get into the discussion here unless I get really bored and am feeling particularly masochistic.
due 07
haaan
Join date: Jun 2006
2,902 IQ
#25
Quote by neidnarb11890
but I never really got what anarchists achieve by not voting, other than being even farther removed from contemporary political discourse.

Both on the internet and irl-world I've seen far-lefties say something along the lines of "I don't want to sustain a system by voting for capitalist parties blah blah," which I don't get, 'cuz, like, "the system" isn't sustained by voting.

Quote by bradulator
I'd say it's definitely idealistic. It requires everybody to be 100% tolerant and willing to sacrifice their good for the good of others. That is unsustainable. But I guess it depends on what kind of anarchic society you have in mind.

Regardless, being idealistic doesn't mean that it's not worth the effort at all.

EDIT: and for the record I think of something "heavenly" when I picture an anarchic world in my head, so that's why I contend that it's incredibly idealistic.

Sounds like you're thinking of Utopia. >_>

Quote by pinheadslts75
Anarchy is like the worst kind of capitalism.

I resent that an-caps even use the term "anarchist," because it totally removes the label from its historical context for some warped ideology. Their only critique of the state is that it inhibits their perceived right-to-exploit.
blake1221
‭‭
Join date: Oct 2007
711 IQ
#26
Quote by cemges
Logic is to self behave. Just when humans are enough good to not need any higher authority to behave itself and create itself an order, then that's anarchizm. But it is also an enemy to authority. Here religion is the biggest enemy of anarchism. Just learn to behave yourself so you won't need a senior. No cops, no prime minister, no army, no weapons, no god.


Never underestimate the power hungry, though. Like mentioned earlier, there are always going to be people looking to capitalize and gain power. It's inevitable, in my opinion, that there will be some form of corruption inherent in every society.
cemges
Banned
Join date: Sep 2011
822 IQ
#28
Quote by blake1221
Never underestimate the power hungry, though. Like mentioned earlier, there are always going to be people looking to capitalize and gain power. It's inevitable, in my opinion, that there will be some form of corruption inherent in every society.


Well yeah, with the current situation of humans it isnt possible. And, anarchism isnt being against a managament, or government. People dont know that anarchism is more then that. It is being used wrong. Anarchism is the simple philosophical view that is against any authority that says you what to do and the things that you must do.Listening to a ****** that you don't damn care about, and idiotic common senses are another enemy of anarchism. But in fact, god is the biggest enemy of anarchism. It is the absolute point, because that god says lots of things to do to you. I mean, an anarchist think like '' why the hell i have to concern myself with that government and all those idiots, they have nothing to do with me why can't i live out of it, why the hell i have to care about idiotic people's slutty common sense and their conservative, decayed, retarded views?'', and such people are mostly genious, well educated, and above the normal people. I mean uh, they are above the basic, illeterate population.
lavazza
K**e sold out
Join date: Dec 2005
7,304 IQ
#29
Quote by cemges
and such people are mostly genious, well educated, and above the normal people.


I´m not an enemy of anarchism, but that´s also the way social sciences describe islamistic terrorists.

Furthermore I don´t get (without being religious) why any form of god is an enemy of anarchism. For any anarchistic for whom it is, it shows an ignorant point of view.
due 07
haaan
Join date: Jun 2006
2,902 IQ
#30
I'm not a big fan of Bakunin -- or most old ass anarchists -- but he has this quote that I think sums it up nicely.

"Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it."

Iono, lots of people's relationships with their gods don't allow them to "freely conceive" moral agency. (I believe it was Kant who said the morality of an action depends on the motives, not the action itself? No clue, I know little about philosophy and shit.) Not all, but I'm sure they exist aplenty. Plus the whole theological fatalism thing really conflicts with anarchist notions of freedom imo.

Uh, to be clear, I don't think believing in god is incompatible with anarchy, just with some brands of anarchist theory.

Something I've never understood about Bakunin (and a whole array of old lefties) is that they claim "human nature" is dictated by the social conditions of the time on the one hand, and upon the other they presuppose that humans by nature will progress and advance, but the evil state and capitalists are holding them back. Pretty lame. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
Last edited by due 07 at Jan 14, 2012,
DempseyPunk
go fly some kites
Join date: Jan 2009
1,175 IQ
#33
I used to be all into anarcho-pacifism in my high school days. A small part of me still holds onto it, but I dont believe an anarchist society (larger than a small commune) would ever work. The trouble with anarchism is the majority of the people would not be for it, and most people are scum anyways.
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lavazza
K**e sold out
Join date: Dec 2005
7,304 IQ
#34
The problem with Anarchy is Hobbes' "Thirst for glory" which Hegel calls "Anerkennung" (Acknowledgement?). A problem that is fenced in in many societies nowadays by money and....
If people see their self-worth verified there´s no problem, but how´s that possible?
MetalMilitia212
Band
Join date: May 2006
2,757 IQ
#35
Anarchy's awesome when it happens like at Rainbow Gathering or sustainable living workshops, but I feel like everybody would get really sick of it after like a year or two. A lot of serious anarchists are kind of annoying and really one-sided though, but I guess that goes hand in hand with living completely independent of virtually all established civilization.

Quote by bradulator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

Religion is not always an enemy

I'm a Christian but religion doesn't work with Anarchy. Religion is basically the government of faith, whereas God is something like the morality necessary to Anarchism. The first church described in the Book of Acts is kind of a form of Anarchy in that it's not based on a system of rules, but doing your best to be an image of Jesus and a light to your fellow man. A lot of people would disagree but that's just my two cents.
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axeslash
I got no learnin'
Join date: Jan 2006
3,485 IQ
#36
Ah anarchism. There are a lot of political ideologies I disagree with but anarchism always has a special place in my heart.

Libertarians, socialists, communists, technocrats, republicans, monarchists, traibalists. There are plenty of people who espouse an affiliation with those political ideologies and you can see it actively reflected in their lifestyles and their current and future goals.

But with anarchists a lot of kids (and manchildren on the internet) will claim to support anarchy and all the things that would sociopolitically entail but will do absolutely nothing in their real lives that even comes close to anarchy. It's just funny to see all these people talk about the merits of anarchy and when you ask them why they buy their stuff at Wal-Mart they explain that since it isn't an anarchistic society we live in and people are all huge jerks they have to play by societies rules.

All I am saying is that anarchists literally have the cutest cop outs. Nothing is cuter than the political opinions of anarchists.
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
axeslash
I got no learnin'
Join date: Jan 2006
3,485 IQ
#37
All I have to say is that all your pretty ideals and theories break down when you realize that science can't progress under anarchism.

Go ahead, argue that science and mathematics would progress without a structured society. I would love to hear a theory on how a society without structure would be able to do research on matters of subatomic physics. How would a structureless society learn the secrets of medicine or the other natural philosophies? How would mathematics progress without a dedicated system of education? How many of you have ever looked at a Laplace transform and thought "damn I know I don't have to know this but I sure would like to explore the majestic world of differential equations!"
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
lavazza
K**e sold out
Join date: Dec 2005
7,304 IQ
#39
Quote by axeslash
All I have to say is that all your pretty ideals and theories break down when you realize that science can't progress under anarchism.

Go ahead, argue that science and mathematics would progress without a structured society. I would love to hear a theory on how a society without structure would be able to do research on matters of subatomic physics. How would a structureless society learn the secrets of medicine or the other natural philosophies? How would mathematics progress without a dedicated system of education? How many of you have ever looked at a Laplace transform and thought "damn I know I don't have to know this but I sure would like to explore the majestic world of differential equations!"


Context governance by those who are affected, I have no idea how it should work, but that´s an idea that plays a certain role in the current democracy discussion.

The funny thing about this is, that the neocons say that science (and with them economy) can only grow in democracies......

But generally I agree with you Matt, just sayng there might be a way. But I won´t get old enough to see it work.
neidnarb11890
so bored with the USA
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#40
Quote by axeslash
Nothing is cuter than the political opinions of anarchists.

Oh I dunno, yer pretty cute. :3