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#41
Quote by axeslash
All I have to say is that all your pretty ideals and theories break down when you realize that science can't progress under anarchism.

Go ahead, argue that science and mathematics would progress without a structured society. I would love to hear a theory on how a society without structure would be able to do research on matters of subatomic physics. How would a structureless society learn the secrets of medicine or the other natural philosophies? How would mathematics progress without a dedicated system of education? How many of you have ever looked at a Laplace transform and thought "damn I know I don't have to know this but I sure would like to explore the majestic world of differential equations!"

anarchism ≠ structurelessness
#42
Holy shit, haven't been on these forums in about 6 or so years. Anyway, this thread did better than I thought it would. Some people are way off on what anarchism stands for.

Noam Chomsky describes anarchism as a societal negative to which all positions of authority must justify themselves unto. That is to say, any claim that arbitrary hierarchical structures in society must exist has the burden of proof, it's much like telling an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist.


Anarchism is of course, not chaos, and shopping at Wal-mart does not make anyone less of an anarchist because when you identify as an anarchist it's from a personal philosophical stand point. But when you partake in a horizontal organization like say Occupy Wall Street-- that is political anarchism in praxis. Sort of like a co-op is socialism in praxis.


By that logic though it would seem to me that even free market capitalist cannot identify as such when they shop at Wal-mart, because Wal-mart is of course a government subsidized company that partakes in writing legislation through organizations like ALEC. Also LLC and incorporation is a privilege only a government can afford to uphold.

Speed = Emotion
Last edited by airsoft at Feb 10, 2012,
#43
well, **** Wal-Mart.

how's the Occupy Movement doing anyway? haven't checked up on it in a while.
#44
Quote by airsoft
Anarchism is of course, not chaos, and shopping at Wal-mart does not make anyone less of an anarchist because when you identify as an anarchist it's from a personal philosophical stand point. But when you partake in a horizontal organization like say Occupy Wall Street-- that is political anarchism in praxis. Sort of like a co-op is socialism in praxis.


By that logic though it would seem to me that even free market capitalist cannot identify as such when they shop at Wal-mart, because Wal-mart is of course a government subsidized company that partakes in writing legislation through organizations like ALEC. Also LLC and incorporation is a privilege only a government can afford to uphold.

+lots

It's like, anarchism is all fuck capitalism and the state and shit, so it's not like shopping at Wal-Mart is undermining those beliefs... at all. No reasonable person would think, "Oh let's boycott Wal-Mart, THAT'LL tear the system down!" All that fair trade business is more of a liberal thing than a radical-or-whatever thing anyway.

I'm not really an anarchist and I don't shop at Wal-Mart ftr, I'm just saying.
#45
Quote by jakesmellspoo
well, **** Wal-Mart.

how's the Occupy Movement doing anyway? haven't checked up on it in a while.


Okay I guess. Smaller, as it is no longer the flavor of the month. Right now they're mostly preventing evictions in cities, and participating in well planned protests instead of the general "let's just hang out" protests, although they are still doing that as well.

They've been behind a few of the protests at Republican candidate speeches. The whole glitter bomb thing is tied to Occupy I think.

Overall, they're still out there, just not the size they were originally.
#46
i had a retarded scheme about a year ago when i was doing too many drugs (cuz i so kool lik dat) where i was gonna steal t-shirts from wal-mart, make band shirts, and sell them to people all because i had heard some shit about them not taking legal action for stolen shit under a certain amount.

i was all like "eyeah i'm gunna fight the system and steal shit from wal-mart and make money at the same time"

^that's good to hear. i wanna go check out the protests in NY once i get some extra money (a job)

i seriously wanna ****ing murder the people who run Sallie Mae, too. those pieces of shit have me by the balls right now.
Last edited by jakesmellspoo at Feb 10, 2012,
#47
Quote by airsoft
Holy shit, haven't been on these forums in about 6 or so years.

...holy shit, I've been here for 6 years

...carry on.
FUCK YOU! GET PUMPED!
#48
Quote by MrCrimpshrine
Anarchists and punk rock are usually hand in hand. So is anyone here a fellow anarchist? and if so what are your beliefs for creating a better future in an anarchist society if it were to someday happen?



Looks good on paper, as does communism, but in a world without truly honest people, those systems will never work the way they were intended to.
Quote by TinPants
ramen is the greatest achievement of mankind since pornographic photography.
#50
I come from a fairly Conservative family, and I was naturally brought up and raised to recognized Republican, christian views. But, as almost every teenager did, I wanted to distance myself from the views of my parents. I decided to go for the more popular, younger and hipper views of the Democrats. Naturally, this led to socialism, and then Communism.

I always used to think that Communism was the answer; "Just let the government take care of everything. They know what to do and what is right." But over the years, I sadly realized that our government is basically useless. The government can barely support itself, so why crush it with the burden of the taking care of the nations poor and regulating businesses?

So, I turned to Anarchism. When the government is destroyed, we will live in true Capitalism. The rich get Richer and the poor die off. Not that I'm a heartless bastard, it is just that it before that way. No government regulations on our business and no government regulations on what we can do and what we cannot do. As society lives without the government, private organizations will take over the responsibilities of government agencies. The beauty of Anarchism is that it sets up to start a new government.
Last edited by AgendaSuicide at Mar 26, 2012,
#52
Quote by AgendaSuicide
I come from a fairly Conservative family, and I was naturally brought up and raised to recognized Republican, christian views. But, as almost every teenager did, I wanted to distance myself from the views of my parents. I decided to go for the more popular, younger and hipper views of the Democrats. Naturally, this led to socialism, and then Communism.

I always used to think that Communism was the answer; "Just let the government take care of everything. They know what to do and what is right." But over the years, I sadly realized that our government is basically useless. The government can barely support itself, so why crush it with the burden of the taking care of the nations poor and regulating businesses?

So, I turned to Anarchism. When the government is destroyed, we will live in true Capitalism. The rich get Richer and the poor die off. Not that I'm a heartless bastard, it is just that it before that way. No government regulations on our business and no government regulations on what we can do and what we cannot do. As society lives without the government, private organizations will take over the responsibilities of government agencies. The beauty of Anarchism is that it sets up to start a new government.


That's not anarchism, that's practically libertarianism.

And it's an incredibly flawed philosophy.
Last edited by iwannabesedated at Mar 26, 2012,
#53
Anarcho-capitalism is, like, srsly the dumbest economic ideology I can think of (no offense).
#56
Quote by neidnarb11890
I myself am a feudalist.


Are you an old-school Richard Dawson feudalist, or a new age Louie Anderson feudalist?
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#58
Quote by due 07
Ya bro, it's ancapism. Get rich, build a cartel, kill erryone.

drop the get rich and build a cartel part. i work solo.

i think they define it as "spree killing"
#59
Quote by due 07
anarchism ≠ structurelessness
My other favorite part of anarchism: instead of responding to criticism of anarchism people simply say you don't understand.

I can't wait until you kids wise up and become social democrats like intelligent adults.
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
#60
Quote by axeslash
My other favorite part of anarchism: instead of responding to criticism of anarchism people simply say you don't understand.

I can't wait until you kids wise up and become social democrats like intelligent adults.

i like your new style:
1 post every 2 months that usually makes you sound like a cranky old person.
#61
Quote by axeslash
My other favorite part of anarchism: instead of responding to criticism of anarchism people simply say you don't understand.

Aww well that's no fair. Your criticism wasn't really substantiated (at all), so it's not like I had any reason to believe you understand. Burden of proof lies on those making positive claims, don'tcha know. But here ya go.

It's funny that you mention that you're social democrat, cuz as far as liberal criticisms of anarchism go, the most common trope seems to be "it's structureless mang." The problem w/ that criticism is that it's demonstrably false:
I think what ur criticism implies is really scary. Even progressive self-proclaimed social democrats like yourself think that hiearachy is not just a form of organization, but the only form. That kind of attitude is so ubiquitous in our culture that we let the po-po pepper spray kids for sitting down in nonviolent protest.
I can't wait until you kids wise up and become social democrats like intelligent adults.

I'm not an anarchist. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
#65
Y'all know how people say that joke about a hipster burning his or her tongue by drinking coffee before it was cool? I think I've heard that joke like six times in the last two weeks.
#67
i have a book on my chin
i am back to NIN
I am proud of my honey
wiggle wiggle
#69
Quote by xevious1
anarchy would never work in reality, its hardly even worth consideration.

Except it has worked in reality.
#71
Why does this thread keep coming back
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#72
Quote by neidnarb11890
i dont liek anarchists becuz im dislexyc & they remind me of spiders.

I genuinely lol'd
FUCK YOU! GET PUMPED!
#73
Quote by bradulator
Why does this thread keep coming back

It's like punk; every so often there's a really shitty "revival" movement.
#74
Quote by bradulator
Why does this thread keep coming back

anarchy always comes back. the bourgeois godhead tries to crush anarchy with its gold thumb. but anarchy swipes back with vine whip. tentacool spins in circles on a record turntable and splashes its victims eyes with venemoth's seed. anarchy is served on a plate with fries and gives the godhead heartburn approximately every three days. anarchy is a goblin that sneaks up behind a wizard and pulls the wool over its eyes. anarchy is the wooly bully (messiah), both fully man and fully lamb.
#75
OH boy political discussions sure are fun!

It is true, Anarchy (or at least an anarchist/socialist movement) has worked in some parts of the world. There is a place in Sweden i believe that was a small village for about 30 or 40 years that was pure Anarchy where everyone helped and worked and etc. But then meth headed bikers from out of town came in and took over (by force of course) and ****ed everything up. It's unfortunate but it is true. Not everything (or everyone) in life is perfect, and like Due 07 said himself, Outside influence causes anarchy to collapse. Well thats all it takes really, just one person or one thing to break something down.

The reality is that there will always be someone who wants more. Or take advantage of any given situation. Take the "occupy" movement for example, sure there were pleanty of individuals on one agenda (against corporate greed- pretty broad right?) and there were homeless junkies walking off the street for a free place to crash. OH well
I love all forms of Rock 'n' Roll, past and NOT present
#76
Quote by due 07
Aww well that's no fair. Your criticism wasn't really substantiated (at all), so it's not like I had any reason to believe you understand. Burden of proof lies on those making positive claims, don'tcha know. But here ya go.

It's funny that you mention that you're social democrat, cuz as far as liberal criticisms of anarchism go, the most common trope seems to be "it's structureless mang." The problem w/ that criticism is that it's demonstrably false:
I think what ur criticism implies is really scary. Even progressive self-proclaimed social democrats like yourself think that hiearachy is not just a form of organization, but the only form. That kind of attitude is so ubiquitous in our culture that we let the po-po pepper spray kids for sitting down in nonviolent protest.

I'm not an anarchist. ¯\_(ツ_/¯
I always seem to get into this same debate with people every time this kind of argument comes up. I say things, then someone else says "man that isn't true" and then I say more stuff and instead of refuting me people just go "man it sure is sad that you are so brainwashed by the popular views of the capitalist/hierarchical/class-based systems."

Please move on from this whole idea that I think anarchy is nothing but structurelessness. I understand that. Anarchy isn't just not having someone in charge. I'm not 14 anymore.

I just don't think that anything an anarchistic society has ever done was worth a damn, and that cherry-picked propaganda about how magical some anarchist organizations are isn't going to convince me otherwise. I don't believe in working towards some magical visionary pseudo-socialist anarchistic collective in the future when there are systems that can get clear results.

For once I'd like to talk about anarchy without some loser telling me I just don't get the way things work and I'm wrong about everything. I'd love a reasonable discussion where my lack of knowledge of a system I think is stupid isn't seen as me being a brainwashed capitalist. I want you to look at me as a crazy cynical old man who just doesn't give a damn anymore about silly kids telling me how the world works. That's the angle you should come at me with.
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
#77
Quote by Mav-16
OH boy political discussions sure are fun!

It is true, Anarchy (or at least an anarchist/socialist movement) has worked in some parts of the world. There is a place in Sweden i believe that was a small village for about 30 or 40 years that was pure Anarchy where everyone helped and worked and etc. But then meth headed bikers from out of town came in and took over (by force of course) and ****ed everything up. It's unfortunate but it is true. Not everything (or everyone) in life is perfect, and like Due 07 said himself, Outside influence causes anarchy to collapse. Well thats all it takes really, just one person or one thing to break something down.

The reality is that there will always be someone who wants more. Or take advantage of any given situation. Take the "occupy" movement for example, sure there were pleanty of individuals on one agenda (against corporate greed- pretty broad right?) and there were homeless junkies walking off the street for a free place to crash. OH well
So how exactly is it that people think anarchy is awesome when it takes so little effort to wreck everything people worked on for over 40 years? Like how hard do you have to cognitive dissonance your brain into not seeing how blindingly useless a system as fragile as that is?
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
#79
Quote by axeslash
Please move on from this whole idea that I think anarchy is nothing but structurelessness. I understand that. Anarchy isn't just not having someone in charge. I'm not 14 anymore.

I just don't think that anything an anarchistic society has ever done was worth a damn, and that cherry-picked propaganda about how magical some anarchist organizations are isn't going to convince me otherwise. I don't believe in working towards some magical visionary pseudo-socialist anarchistic collective in the future when there are systems that can get clear results.

"Go ahead, argue that science and mathematics would progress without a structured society."

I'm terribly sorry for misunderstanding you, Mr. Axe, but that statement sure implies that anarchism is structureless. ¯\_(ツ_/¯