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#1
As much as I am opposed to SOPA and PIPA, am I the only one who finds it odd that we're cheering on corporations against our own government? What kind of #occupation are we going for again?

This is my current facebook status, but I'd like to see what UG thinks. Is it wrong that corporations can affect the decisions of our government in this way? Most of us already have a problem with the large influence they have.

One answer I have is that the corporations like Google who are in opposition to this bill are doing it publicly. But even that doesn't entirely jive with my ethical/political intuition.

Thoughts?
#2
It's nice see corporations doing what's right for the people, and not themselves [ie paying politicians].
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#4
Quote by Simsimius
It's nice see corporations doing what's right for the people, and not themselves [ie paying politicians].

Well, you can see how this is very much in their financial self interest. There's no doubt of that.
#5
I don't like that corporations have such deep control of congress. I have no problem with google/wikipedia/reddit protesting because they are actually voicing public opinion.
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#6
Why do we so vehemently villainize corporations in this country?
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#7
Quote by jjbarnes
I don't like that corporations have such deep control of congress. I have no problem with google/wikipedia/reddit protesting because they are actually voicing public opinion.

Is it that they just happen to be in line with public opinion, or is it that they support the public for the public's sake? I think it's the former.
Quote by Dirge Humani
I don't see it as them protesting to the government. Google and Wikipedia are used more often by people, and this is them raising awareness about issues.

But it is their intent to affect legislation, correct?
#8
I don't know. does it makes rage fans uncomfortable that they were on a major label? you could argue the hypocrite angle or the "taking advantage of the system from within" angle. corporations aren't necessarily bad, so it doesn't really bother me. there are corporations wielding their influence in support, so I don't have a problem with corporations dissenting on behalf of the people. sure, their motives are most likely selfish. but meh. take what you can get.
#DTWD
#9
The government seems to be acting in the best interest of corporations these days rather than their actual constituents. In this instance hopefully the corporations against the bill push harder to eliminate the bill because their interests are aligned with that of the general public for the time being.
#10
I see nothing wrong with the protests of SOPA/PIPA as it's in the consumers best interest.

But if they were to protest something that would screw the consumer over I wouldn't be happy. Luckily you'll always find an opposing group that's big enough to make sway, generally government vs coprorations. And if they team up we've always got the general public to fall back on.
#11
Quote by son_of_bodom
Why do we so vehemently villainize corporations in this country?


because they're "fictitious" entities with the rights of human persons and enough money to ibfluence our media, government and even education. and their only legal obligation is to provide a profit to shareholders even at the expense of people's well being. in fact, if a company were to end inhumane practices or dissolve to end exploitation of people and the environment, they could be massively sued and slapped with criminal charges.
#DTWD
#12
Every time, the message should matter, not the medium of the message. I don't care who you are, what you are or anything, if the message is good I will support it.
#13
Quote by primusfan
I don't know. does it makes rage fans uncomfortable that they were on a major label? you could argue the hypocrite angle or the "taking advantage of the system from within" angle. corporations aren't necessarily bad, so it doesn't really bother me. there are corporations wielding their influence in support, so I don't have a problem with corporations dissenting on behalf of the people. sure, their motives are most likely selfish. but meh. take what you can get.

I think the question is whether or not it's something the public should support, or something to be prevented/avoided. It sets a precedent in modern society. I can't recall anything quite like this in my lifetime. Some similar things, but not quite like this. I'm still unsure about what to think.
#14
Quote by captaincrunk
Well, you can see how this is very much in their financial self interest. There's no doubt of that.


There's nothing wrong with a corporation doing something that will make them more money. What's wrong is when they prioritize profits over people. If all corporate moneymaking ventures were as noble as the SOPA/PIPA blackouts, I would have no problems whatsoever.
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#15
Quote by fearofthemark
There's nothing wrong with a corporation doing something that will make them more money. What's wrong is when they prioritize profits over people. If all corporate moneymaking ventures were as noble as the SOPA/PIPA blackouts, I would have no problems whatsoever.

But we know that they aren't. So would we not be justified in denying them this avenue of political influence?
#17
Wasn't it other corporations that lobbied for this bill anyway? i.e. the entertainment industry. So actually, you're fighting for your government to not be controlled by these corporations, but to be controlled by the public, and since Google, Wikipedia, Reddit etc are voicing the opinion of the public, you're fighting against those other corporations
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Last edited by mullet1337 at Jan 18, 2012,
#18
Quote by captaincrunk
But we know that they aren't. So would we not be justified in denying them this avenue of political influence?


No, I think we should be encouraging the avenues of political influence that help the public and discouraging the ones that don't. If corporations realize that they'll make more money by not constantly trying to screw the consumers over, they might change their ways for the better.

It's not as if Google or Wikipedia are just giving money to lobbyists, convincing congress to vote against SOPA/PIPA. They're raising public awareness of the issue and letting us take matters into our own hands, which I think is the way things should be.
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#19
The occupy is movement is not about siding with government is the first place...

And these are two very irrelevant topics.
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#20
Quote by mullet1337
Wasn't it other corporations that lobbied for this bill anyway? i.e. the entertainment industry. So actually, you're fighting for your government to not be controlled by these corporations, but to be controlled by the public, which is what Google, Wikipedia, Reddit etc are trying to do as they're voicing the opinion of the public.


The issue, I think, is that people think Google, etc. voice the public opinion out of some sense of altruism or whatever, when the only reason they are doing anything is because of their financial interests.

It happens to line up with what we want--good! Take advantage of it! But don't be fooled to think companies care about you in any way beyond getting your money.

Now non-profits like wikipedia are a different story than google and other commercial sites, but I don't think people were protesting their lobby power in the first place.
#21
Quote by captaincrunk
As much as I am opposed to SOPA and PIPA, am I the only one who finds it odd that we're cheering on corporations against our own government? What kind of #occupation are we going for again?



There's nothing wrong with standing against Washington when they are being insane. The United States isn't a dictatorship *yet*
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#22
I think it's because a fair amount of people don't humanize the government. We've never met these people who are in charge of us, and they have control over things we don't. So sometimes we don't trust them.

It's part of why I don't care about the SOPA thing. The United States government contains people too. They use the same shit we do, and the burden of this bill is larger on Google, Wikipedia, Youtube, etc. which then affects their users. It'd be like passing a bill that would make it harder to go to Walmart or Target or McDonalds.
#23
Quote by dullsilver_mike
The issue, I think, is that people think Google, etc. voice the public opinion out of some sense of altruism or whatever, when the only reason they are doing anything is because of their financial interests.

It happens to line up with what we want--good! Take advantage of it! But don't be fooled to think companies care about you in any way beyond getting your money.

Now non-profits like wikipedia are a different story than google and other commercial sites, but I don't think people were protesting their lobby power in the first place.

But they're not as bad as the even more capitalist entertainment industry, who are the only ones that will benefit from this bill. Not all corporations are the same, not all are evil, but the ones that this bill is actually for are. The bill was requested by the entertainment industry, for the entertainment industry.

EDIT: Ok, not just the entertainment industry
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Last edited by mullet1337 at Jan 18, 2012,
#24
Quote by Simsimius
It's nice see corporations doing what's right for the people, and not themselves [ie paying politicians].


Exactly this.

You are in denial if you think that SOPA doesn't have a list of companies lobbying behind them hoping to bank off the bill.

http://www.stopsopa.org/?page_id=40

Here are 400 of them, have a good day sir.

Quote by JDizzle787
I think it's because a fair amount of people don't humanize the government. We've never met these people who are in charge of us, and they have control over things we don't. So sometimes we don't trust them.

It's part of why I don't care about the SOPA thing. The United States government contains people too. They use the same shit we do, and the burden of this bill is larger on Google, Wikipedia, Youtube, etc. which then affects their users. It'd be like passing a bill that would make it harder to go to Walmart or Target or McDonalds.


Politicians at the federal level are often astoundingly corrupt and are pretty much always out of touch with their people and interests.

Look at drug rights, many in the house have criminal records from such but are paid out status quo prohibitionists. They are the state, they are already practically exempt from their own rule..
Last edited by garden of grey at Jan 18, 2012,
#25
Quote by mullet1337
But they're not as bad as the even more capitalist entertainment industry, who are the only ones that will benefit from this bill. Not all corporations are the same, not all are evil, but the ones that this bill is actually for are. The bill was requested by the entertainment industry, for the entertainment industry.


I don't disagree, we should encourage companies to make money off of the things that are good for us like the free exchange of ideas. I just think people need to keep that understanding in the very front of their minds instead of turning into google fanboys.

I also hate the way "corporation" is used even though I'm occasionally guilty of using it in the popular way. My job is paid for by the Corporation for National and Community Service. I don't think anyone assumes that's a greedy monster out to screw people over, it isn't even for-profit, yet it's a corporation in the technical sense of the word.
#26
Quote by fearofthemark
No, I think we should be encouraging the avenues of political influence that help the public and discouraging the ones that don't. If corporations realize that they'll make more money by not constantly trying to screw the consumers over, they might change their ways for the better.

You can't imagine how threatening blackouts could be used in a way you didn't like?
Quote by fearofthemark

It's not as if Google or Wikipedia are just giving money to lobbyists, convincing congress to vote against SOPA/PIPA. They're raising public awareness of the issue and letting us take matters into our own hands, which I think is the way things should be.

They probably do both, honestly. Facebook is a PAC now.
Quote by rx_eb
The occupy is movement is not about siding with government is the first place...

It's about siding against corporate influence in government?
Quote by rx_eb

And these are two very irrelevant topics.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Irrelevant to what? This thread I made about them?
Quote by dullsilver_mike
Now non-profits like wikipedia are a different story than google and other commercial sites, but I don't think people were protesting their lobby power in the first place.

I agree, wikipedia is of the people.
#27
Quote by fearofthemark
No, I think we should be encouraging the avenues of political influence that help the public and discouraging the ones that don't. If corporations realize that they'll make more money by not constantly trying to screw the consumers over, they might change their ways for the better.

It's not as if Google or Wikipedia are just giving money to lobbyists, convincing congress to vote against SOPA/PIPA. They're raising public awareness of the issue and letting us take matters into our own hands, which I think is the way things should be.


This
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#28
Quote by captaincrunk
As much as I am opposed to SOPA and PIPA, am I the only one who finds it odd that we're cheering on corporations against our own government? What kind of #occupation are we going for again?

This is my current facebook status, but I'd like to see what UG thinks. Is it wrong that corporations can affect the decisions of our government in this way? Most of us already have a problem with the large influence they have.

One answer I have is that the corporations like Google who are in opposition to this bill are doing it publicly. But even that doesn't entirely jive with my ethical/political intuition.

Thoughts?

You do know that the bill was written BY corporate entities, not the Government.
#30
Am I the only person here who thinks that corporations like Google and the rest aren't doing this for the 'people;' they're doing it to protect their own business and revenue, which will be affected drastically by this act if it passes?

You really think Google gives a crap what you can see online as long as they keep turning profit?

As far as the original question, I don't believe that corporations should be able to control any aspect of the government's workings, whether beneficially or adversely. I also, however, don't believe the government and the people comprising it have any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives; what they eat, see online, say to one another, etc. In my opinion, government's job is to ensure a smoothly running body of governed lands by providing a clearly defined and well kept system of non-biased laws aimed at keeping as much peace as possible, and protecting the people it governs - not just physically, but through our inalienable HUMAN rights. Not simply the rights perceived as given by former governments.

As long as it's run by man, however, it'll likely never happen. But that's my opinion on the matter.
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#31
Wow... This is a deeper topic than I usually log in and find in the Pit when I go into work
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#32
I believe the saying "the enemy of my enemy, is a friend" fits in the context of this discussion. The motives of corporations like wikipedia, reddit, etc may not be so altruistic, but by consequence, they advocate the will of the public at large. I guess it depends on if you want to scrutinize the means to which they reach a publicly desired end. If the goal is met, why does it matter who is protesting, and why they are protesting?
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Quote by darkstar2466
Let's make this the Pit's motto:

"Forever alone, together"



IS THIS FREEDOM, OR CONFINEMENT?! FREE MOSCOE_ESPANOL!!!
#33
Sure it's spam, but here's a poem for the occupy movement.

I Am the People, the Mob
BY CARL SANDBURG

I am the people—the mob—the crowd—the mass.
Do you know that all the great work of the world is done through me?
I am the workingman, the inventor, the maker of the world’s food and clothes.
I am the audience that witnesses history. The Napoleons come from me and the Lincolns. They die. And then I send forth more Napoleons and Lincolns.
I am the seed ground. I am a prairie that will stand for much plowing. Terrible storms pass over me. I forget. The best of me is sucked out and wasted. I forget. Everything but Death comes to me and makes me work and give up what I have. And I forget.
Sometimes I growl, shake myself and spatter a few red drops for history to remember. Then—I forget.
When I, the People, learn to remember, when I, the People, use the lessons of yesterday and no longer forget who robbed me last year, who played me for a fool—then there will be no speaker in all the world say the name: “The People,” with any fleck of a sneer in his voice or any far-off smile of derision.
The mob—the crowd—the mass—will arrive then.
#35
Quote by captaincrunk
You can't imagine how threatening blackouts could be used in a way you didn't like?


and when they are, I'll oppose it 100%.


They probably do both, honestly. Facebook is a PAC now.


The sad truth is that money plays a huge part in politics. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they do. Paying lobbyists to influence politicians is a despicable way to buy influence. But I'm not going to oppose steps taken in the right direction (blackouts, raising of public awareness, etc.) to get back at them for taking other steps in the wrong direction.
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#36
Quote by fearofthemark
and when they are, I'll oppose it 100%.


How?

"Hey Google, turn back on!"


Putting all the hyperbole apart, assuming the likes of Google are opposing SOPA out of altruism seems a bit naive.
Last edited by Cloaca at Jan 18, 2012,
#37
Quote by Cloaca
How?


Do you feel warm within your cage?

And have you figured out yet -


Life goes by?
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#38
Quote by captaincrunk
As much as I am opposed to SOPA and PIPA, am I the only one who finds it odd that we're cheering on corporations against our own government? What kind of #occupation are we going for again?


This seems to imply that people in support of Occupy are actively against corporations in general. In reality we just want them to use their powers fairly and rightly. Wiki's blackout is the PERFECT example of how corporations should act. Doing what is in their power to protest, not paying off politicians to get the bill removed.
#39
Quote by strat0blaster
Am I the only person here who thinks that corporations like Google and the rest aren't doing this for the 'people;' they're doing it to protect their own business and revenue, which will be affected drastically by this act if it passes?

No, you aren't. Congratulations on pointing out the obvious Chomsky.

Quote by strat0blaster
You really think Google gives a crap what you can see online as long as they keep turning profit?

Their business and revenue is tied directly to that in this case, hence their support. For the most part, Google's fate is tied to relative freedom of the internet. The interests Google will support to better its own fate is tied to what most internet users would give a crap about. It's entirely irrelevant that they don't give a shit about it because of our personal interests.

Quote by strat0blaster
As far as the original question, I don't believe that corporations should be able to control any aspect of the government's workings, whether beneficially or adversely.

How do you intend to do anything about it? If you're going to be that useless based on lofty ideals, just sit this one out. The situation is that they do control the government's workings, both beneficially and adversely. The question is, in the face of adverse corporate influence, if you still have an issue with corporate influence that is beneficial.

Quote by strat0blaster
I also, however, don't believe the government and the people comprising it have any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives; what they eat, see online, say to one another, etc. In my opinion, government's job is to ensure a smoothly running body of governed lands by providing a clearly defined and well kept system of non-biased laws aimed at keeping as much peace as possible, and protecting the people it governs - not just physically, but through our inalienable HUMAN rights. Not simply the rights perceived as given by former governments.

So basically, the government has absolutely no responsibility and no necessary functions? There are no inalienable human rights. What a garbage claim, unless you're secretly god or something.

Quote by strat0blaster
As long as it's run by man, however, it'll likely never happen. But that's my opinion on the matter.

What a dumb opinion.
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