Apple, Google, Intel illegal anti-poaching scheme -> antitrust lawsuit

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#1
Many big name tech companies have been found to have agreed on a non-poaching scheme. An anti-trust lawsuit is now going to be taken against these companies.

Pretty much what this means is that the companies do not offer positions to employees from competing companies, what this results in is a value of an employee being artificially dropped, resulting in the wages of the workers being artificially lower as their is no demand for their job within other companies.

This saves money for companies, results in lower paid employees, makes finding a new job that much harder and sometimes impossible, and is extremely illegal.

seems as though Google and Apple have turned into Microsoft of the 90s
Thoughts?

Quote by engadget.com
Back in 2009, a small controversy began swirling around Google and Apple, amid allegations that the two companies had struck an informal agreement to not poach each other's employees. The Department of Justice launched an investigation into the matter in 2010, but details of the case were only made public for the first time yesterday. TechCrunch was the first to sift through the documents, and has uncovered some ostensibly incriminating evidence against not only Google and Apple, but Pixar, Lucasfilm, Adobe, Intel, and Intuit, as well. According to filings from the US District Court for the Northern District of California, these companies did indeed enter "no poach" agreements with each other, and agreed to refrain from engaging in bidding wars. The documents also suggest that they collectively sought to limit their employees' power to negotiate for higher salaries.

Some of the most apparently damning evidence derives from archived e-mails, including one that Adobe CEO Bruce Chizen penned to Steve Jobs in May 2005. In the message, sent under the subject "Recruitment of Apple Employees," Adobe's SVP of human resources explains that "Bruce and Steve Jobs have an agreement that we are not to solicit ANY Apple employees, and vice versa." Pixar's Lori McAdams expressed similar sentiments in an internal e-mail from 2007, writing: "I just got off the phone with Danielle Lambert [of Apple], and we agreed that effective now, we'll follow a Gentleman's agreement with Apple that is similar to our Lucasfilm agreement." This would suggest, as the DOJ writes, that there's "strong evidence that the companies knew about the other express agreements, patterned their own agreements off of them, and operated them concurrently with the others to accomplish the same objective." The DOJ announced in September that it had reached settlements with the six implicated firms, but a class-action lawsuit is scheduled to get underway next week in San Jose.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/20/doj-google-apple-lawsuit-hiring-antitrust/
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#2
It always bothers me to hear how great companies are fucking up.
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#4
But Apple can do no wrong!


They're disgusting. A great example of how a company can charge stupid people, stupidly high prices.
My God, it's full of stars!
#5
Quote by AeroRocker
It always bothers me to hear how great companies are fucking up.

This.

A majority of the computer companies that were born during the early days of the computing industry (namely Apple and Google, in this statement) had some amazing, innovative things at the start and pretty much came from college kids and garages. Now they're all experiencing the ugliness that is big business and they're nowhere near what they sprouted from.
#6
Quote by Dreadnought
But Apple can do no wrong!


They're disgusting. A great example of how a company can charge stupid people, stupidly high prices.

Really? Tell me, do you know how circuits work and how operating systems work? Or are you just another "gamer" who thinks he knows a bunch about computers because he built his own pc. The chips are designed to work with each other and the os is optimized for that chipset. Macs also are very similar to linux making them great for programmers and scientists. Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you should bash them. I don't mean any offense by that last statement, but often times thats why people bash apple so hard. I don't agree with everything apple does, but they do make good, reliable computers.
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#7
Quote by jjbarnes
Really? Tell me, do you know how circuits work and how operating systems work? Or are you just another "gamer" who thinks he knows a bunch about computers because he built his own pc. The chips are designed to work with each other and the os is optimized for that chipset. Macs also are very similar to linux making them great for programmers and scientists. Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you should bash them. I don't mean any offense by that last statement, but often times thats why people bash apple so hard. I don't agree with everything apple does, but they do make good, reliable computers.

FANBOI TO THE RESCUE!



shutup, his comment had nothing specifically to do with computers, but the company itself.


also, heres a nice graphic for you, not as reliable as its obvious you think:
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Last edited by JimmyBanks6 at Jan 20, 2012,
#8
Quote by jjbarnes
Really? Tell me, do you know how circuits work and how operating systems work? Or are you just another "gamer" who thinks he knows a bunch about computers because he built his own pc. The chips are designed to work with each other and the os is optimized for that chipset. Macs also are very similar to linux making them great for programmers and scientists. Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you should bash them. I don't mean any offense by that last statement, but often times thats why people bash apple so hard. I don't agree with everything apple does, but they do make good, reliable computers.





I just bought one for my wife. Do I like it? Yeah, well enough. Still hate Apple.

And oy dot, what's an operating system? Is that what runs my PS3 here in my moms basement? Or is it in my car??
My God, it's full of stars!
#9
Quote by jjbarnes
Really? Tell me, do you know how circuits work and how operating systems work? Or are you just another "gamer" who thinks he knows a bunch about computers because he built his own pc. The chips are designed to work with each other and the os is optimized for that chipset. Macs also are very similar to linux making them great for programmers and scientists. Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you should bash them. I don't mean any offense by that last statement, but often times thats why people bash apple so hard. I don't agree with everything apple does, but they do make good, reliable computers.


inb4 Dreadnought makes a neutral statement like "Whatever, I have no real opinions on this" but then we never hear from jjbarnes again....

EDIT: Ninja'd yourself out of a "Dread is a badass mofo" joke. Damn
#10
Quote by willT08
inb4 Dreadnought makes a neutral statement like "Whatever, I have no real opinions on this" but then we never hear from jjbarnes again....

EDIT: Ninja'd yourself out of a "Dread is a badass mofo" joke. Damn


Am I known for neutral comments?
My God, it's full of stars!
#11
What about the other end of the extreme? What if they were poaching rampantly? Wouldn't that also have negative effects?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#13
Quote by jjbarnes
Really? Tell me, do you know how circuits work and how operating systems work? Or are you just another "gamer" who thinks he knows a bunch about computers because he built his own pc. The chips are designed to work with each other and the os is optimized for that chipset. Macs also are very similar to linux making them great for programmers and scientists. Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you should bash them. I don't mean any offense by that last statement, but often times thats why people bash apple so hard. I don't agree with everything apple does, but they do make good, reliable computers.

hahahaha oh wow
#15
Quote by Xiaoxi
What about the other end of the extreme? What if they were poaching rampantly? Wouldn't that also have negative effects?

No, rampant poaching isnt likely to happen, because companies would pay their employees more and more, to prevent poaching from occuring.

So employees get paid for the value another company sees in them.

Supply/Demand. Its how it is supposed to work.
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#16
Quote by JimmyBanks6
No, rampant poaching isnt likely to happen, because companies would pay their employees more and more, to prevent poaching from occuring.

So employees get paid for the value another company sees in them.

Supply/Demand. Its how it is supposed to work.

It's transfer of technology they worry about. Not paying talent.

Non compete clauses are used all over. No biggy.
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#17
Damn anti-poaching schemes.

Just when you think you're going to enjoy yourself a fine egg or bag an elephant, they swipe the rug right out from under you.
#18
Quote by JimmyBanks6
No, rampant poaching isnt likely to happen, because companies would pay their employees more and more, to prevent poaching from occuring.

So employees get paid for the value another company sees in them.

Supply/Demand. Its how it is supposed to work.

While the actual poaching might be limited, wouldn't it possibly create an environment in which the employees feel no sense of loyalty and every company is always in danger of losing a valuable person and revealing trade secrets when the employees have that degree of advantage? It might also raise costs dramatically.

And from that article, it doesn't explicitly say that the workers won't be considered at all at other companies, only that they won't be poached while the worker is still currently employed. What if someone voluntarily quit or was dropped?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#19
Quote by Jackal58
It's transfer of technology they worry about. Not paying talent.

Non compete clauses are used all over. No biggy.

however non-disclosure clauses are to prevent the transfer of technology through an employee. The deterrent is they can result in long jail sentences if not followed, is that not correct?
Quote by Xiaoxi
While the actual poaching might be limited, wouldn't it possibly create an environment in which the employees feel no sense of loyalty and every company is always in danger of losing a valuable person and revealing trade secrets when the employees have that degree of advantage? It might also raise costs dramatically.

And from that article, it doesn't explicitly say that the workers won't be considered at all at other companies, only that they won't be poached while the worker is still currently employed. What if someone voluntarily quit or was dropped?

I feel as though if a company pays higher to retain an employee, that their sense of loyalty will increase.

If an employee was swapping through companies too often, nobody would want them.

trade-secrets are issue of non-disclosure agreements, if an employee really wanted to make a trade-secret public, theres nothing stopping them whether or not they have a new job or still work for the employee, yet that isnt an issue, as jail sentences and monetary fines are the deterrent.


to the second paragraph: no it doesnt, im sure that will be part of the trial and more details will come out then
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Last edited by JimmyBanks6 at Jan 20, 2012,
#21
Quote by Dirge Humani

Also, google.


Were you expecting Google to not be corporate douchers?
#23
Quote by Dirge Humani
Google has usually been very good at not being a bad guy. This is not like them.

"Do no evil"

really depends on who you talk to about them though, rupert murdoch doesnt seem to think so:

Murdoch described Google as a 'piracy leader' for directing people to pirate film websites. 'Piracy leader is Google, who streams movies free, then sells adverts around them. No wonder pouring millions into lobbying.'


however, yes i do like my google, android and search, maps, gmail and docs i regularly use
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#24
Quote by blake1221
Were you expecting Google to not be corporate douchers?

But they seem so... fun.
#26
Quote by JimmyBanks6

I feel as though if a company pays higher to retain an employee, that their sense of loyalty will increase.
It's a combination of pay and treatment. But take Apple for example, they have way more capital than some of these smaller companies and could make an offer that the smaller companies can't compete with. What then?

If an employee was swapping through companies too often, nobody would want them.
That's just under the current cultural environment. If poaching became more prevalent, then companies might not care or have any choice.

to the second paragraph: no it doesnt, im sure that will be part of the trial and more details will come out then

That's why we can't jump to conclusions right away. I mean, if they are just agreeing to leave workers alone while they are employed, then that's actually a very noble and honorable agreement.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#27
Quote by Xiaoxi
It's a combination of pay and treatment. But take Apple for example, they have way more capital than some of these smaller companies and could make an offer that the smaller companies can't compete with. What then?

Small companies arent part of these agreements and already cant compete if a bigger corporation wants their talent, this doesnt effect that at all.


Quote by Dirge Humani
Yeah well Murdoch is a moron. That's like saying all map makers are bad people because I can use their maps to find whorehouses.


well, imo that comparison is pretty poor, but im not taking a side im just saying, it really depends on who you talk to about google on whether they are a clean company or not.

Android also has huge patent issues.
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Last edited by JimmyBanks6 at Jan 20, 2012,
#28
Quote by JimmyBanks6
Small companies arent part of these agreements and already cant compete if a bigger corporation wants their talent, this doesnt effect that at all.

By smaller I mean Adobe & Intuit.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#29
Quote by Xiaoxi
By smaller I mean Adobe & Intuit.

Adobe
Market cap: 14.99 Billion USD
http://www.google.com/finance?q=adobe

Intuit Inc
Market cap: 16.97 Billion USD
http://www.google.com/finance?q=intuit


While being smaller in comparison to apple and google, these are not what I consider a small business to be.

If these companies need to retain specific employees, they have the value to do so.
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#30
I can't really speak for Apple/Pixar or Lucasfilm's side of things, but considering Google is often amongst the top five on lists of best companies to work for, and Adobe, Intuit, and Intel are usually somewhere around the top 50, I'm not really sure this has such a dramatic impact on most of those in the agreement. Hell, I'm not really sure how you would prosecute the Adobe-Apple thing since there's not really anything legally binding with a gentleman's agreement.
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Last edited by necrosis1193 at Jan 20, 2012,
#31
Quote by JimmyBanks6
however non-disclosure clauses are to prevent the transfer of technology through an employee. The deterrent is they can result in long jail sentences if not followed, is that not correct?

No. Civil case. No jail time.
I work on an airport. We poach each others employees all the time. One company tried to institute a non compete clause. All their mechanics laughed at them.
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#32
[quote="'-[NiL"]-']Damn anti-poaching schemes.

Just when you think you're going to enjoy yourself a fine egg or bag an elephant, they swipe the rug right out from under you.
and here was me thinking that my joke was original

Quote by Dirge Humani
Yeah well Murdoch is a moron. That's like saying all map makers are bad people because I can use their maps to find whorehouses.

...you have maps that have the bordellos marked? Where can you buy those?
#34
Quote by CoreysMonster
and here was me thinking that my joke was original

Were you going to go the egg or the elephant route, or both?
#35
[quote="'-[NiL"]-']Were you going to go the egg or the elephant route, or both?
The egg joke, but then I was gonna put a "Rescuers Down Under" twist on it.

#36
Quote by necrosis1193
I can't really speak for Apple/Pixar or Lucasfilm's side of things, but considering Google is often amongst the top five on lists of best companies to work for, and Adobe, Intuit, and Intel are usually somewhere around the top 50, I'm not really sure this has such a dramatic impact on most of those in the agreement. Hell, I'm not really sure how you would prosecute the Adobe-Apple thing since there's not really anything legally binding with a gentleman's agreement.

No illegal contract is legally binding.
#37
Quote by jjbarnes
Really? Tell me, do you know how circuits work and how operating systems work? Or are you just another "gamer" who thinks he knows a bunch about computers because he built his own pc. The chips are designed to work with each other and the os is optimized for that chipset. Macs also are very similar to linux making them great for programmers and scientists. Just because you can't afford one doesn't mean you should bash them. I don't mean any offense by that last statement, but often times thats why people bash apple so hard. I don't agree with everything apple does, but they do make good, reliable computers.



i was recently shopping for computers and i came across a macpro. i couldn't help but laugh when i saw a $2200 computer with 3gbs of ram >.<
Last edited by Hilt_Magnet at Jan 20, 2012,
#38
Quote by Hilt_Magnet
i was recently shopping for computers and i came across a macpro. i couldn't help but laugh when i saw a $2200 computer with 3gbs of ram >.<

It's ECC memory, not to mention server grade CPUs. Not that you really need any of this for your home desktop.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jan 20, 2012,
#39
Quote by captaincrunk
No illegal contract is legally binding.


...There was never a contract to begin with.

A gentleman's agreement is "You do X, and in return I'll do Y", a handshake, and faith in the integrity of the other party to hold up their end of the bargain. You can't take legal action over a gentleman's agreement, because there is no official documentation, it is never legally binding, a verbal agreement is not something you can enforce legally.
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#40
Quote by necrosis1193
...There was never a contract to begin with.

I'm saying that you literally can't have a contract to do something illegal.
Quote by necrosis1193

A gentleman's agreement is "You do X, and in return I'll do Y",

Sounds like a contract to the law.
Quote by necrosis1193
a handshake, and faith in the integrity of the other party to hold up their end of the bargain. You can't take legal action over a gentleman's agreement, because there is no official documentation, it is never legally binding, a verbal agreement is not something you can enforce legally.

Actually, most all contracts are "verbal" contracts. Oral contracts (spoken allowed, probably what you meant) are enforceable too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_contract

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