#1
hey sorry if this has been asked and answered before, but i searched and looked through some of the stickies and didnt see it.


alright so heres my question: say your playing in A minor, why is it that you can use a D major chord? is it just so you have the IV sound instead of the iv sound, similar to having the V (or V7) chord instead of the v? but the latter makes more sense to me, because using the leading tone makes sense and also at least the major third for the V chord is in the harmonic minor scale


hope i didnt word that too badly haha
#2
D major is in the melodic minor scale. Also you don't have to follow scales exactly, off key notes can still sound good.
37N
Last edited by 37 Narwhals at Jan 21, 2012,
#3
It's A melodic minor. The A melodic minor has a raised 6th ( F sharp) which is the major third of D major.
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#4
alright cool. i was kinda wondering if it was that, melodic minor is (obviously) the odd man out as the one i dont know well at all haha. dont know how i got through that part of my music theory class haha

and yeah i know off key notes can sound good, but this seemed like one of those cases where there a solid reason behind it
#6
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
It's borrowed from the paralle; major.


Yeah. The melodic minor doesn't have an F#.
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#7
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
It's borrowed from the paralle; major.


wut? you mean borrowed from A major?
I assume you mean parallel ?
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Last edited by Spitty33 at Jan 21, 2012,
#8
Oh, har de har har.

Quote by AlanHB
Yeah. The melodic minor doesn't have an F#.


Yeah, it does. You could explain the F# as being a result of the raised 6 in the melodic minor, but the melodic minor is worthless, so it makes more sense to say it's borrowed from the parallel major.
#9
Well there are many ways to explain it, but it's certainly not borrowed from the parallel major!

If you look at a circle of fifths, you see that the two keys closest to C/Am are G/Em and F/Dm. G/Em has the F# (note) that C/Am does not. Am (the chord) functions as the ii in the key of G/Em, where D (major chord) is the V. Keep in mind that ii-V is a very smooth, common progression, and that keys lead into each other on the circle of fifths following V-I cadence harmony. So when you play Am -> D, it's like you're shifting backwards into the key of G/Em, but because you established the tonality at the Am, you want to resolve back to it. This is why the F# appears in the melodic minor scale.
#10
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Yeah, it does. You could explain the F# as being a result of the raised 6 in the melodic minor, but the melodic minor is worthless, so it makes more sense to say it's borrowed from the parallel major.


Hey you're right! Argh. Coffee time

Quote by bouttime
Well there are many ways to explain it, but it's certainly not borrowed from the parallel major!


So D major isn't in the key of A major?
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#11
Quote by AlanHB
So D major isn't in the key of A major?

Heh, we both know it is, but A major (the key) is 3 keys away. If that's the case I better be hearing the C# and G# too, which I suppose you could do, but that would be pretty unlikely.

Quote by bouttimeijoined
it's almost certainly not borrowed from the parallel major!

Fixed, my apologies.
#12
Quote by AlanHB
Hey you're right! Argh. Coffee time


Pah, just drink more beers.

Quote by bouttimeijoined
Well there are many ways to explain it, but it's certainly not borrowed from the parallel major!

If you look at a circle of fifths, you see that the two keys closest to C/Am are G/Em and F/Dm. G/Em has the F# (note) that C/Am does not. Am (the chord) functions as the ii in the key of G/Em, where D (major chord) is the V. Keep in mind that ii-V is a very smooth, common progression, and that keys lead into each other on the circle of fifths following V-I cadence harmony. So when you play Am -> D, it's like you're shifting backwards into the key of G/Em, but because you established the tonality at the Am, you want to resolve back to it. This is why the F# appears in the melodic minor scale.


whaaaaaa?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_key
#13
Quote by bouttimeijoined
Heh, we both know it is, but A major (the key) is 3 keys away. If that's the case I better be hearing the C# and G# too, which I suppose you could do, but that would be pretty unlikely.

what kind of drugs are you on dude?
Actually called Mark!

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#14
Quote by jazz_rock_feel

Yes, we know what parallel keys are. Here's one for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths#Modulation_and_chord_progression

Now if I play an Am followed by D, is it more likely that the D is coming from the adjacent G/Em key, or from the more distant A/F#m key?

what kind of drugs are you on dude?


noots mostly, you should try em, might help you understand music theory better.
#15
Quote by bouttimeijoined
Yes, we know what parallel keys are. Here's one for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths#Modulation_and_chord_progression

Now if I play an Am followed by D, is it more likely that the D is coming from the adjacent G/Em key, or from the more distant A/F#m key?


If you were modulating, then the obvious choice would be that you're taking it from G. However, the question wasn't: why can you use D major in a minor when you're modulating to G major? It was: why can you use D major in A minor? And that, without any context, means modal borrowing, modal mixture, primary mixture, borrowed chords whatever semantics you prefer. They're all the same and it all means borrowing from a parallel mode (or in this case key). If I see something like i - IV - V7 - i in A minor, it's ridiculous to say that the IV (Dmaj) is taken from VII (G), because the G isn't involved in this in any way. It makes far more sense to say that the IV (specifically the F#) is being taken from the parallel major as a colour chord (or note).
#16
And that, without any context, means modal borrowing, modal mixture, primary mixture, borrowed chords whatever semantics you prefer.


Yes, but why assume borrowing from A major? I assume by default to be borrowing from the mode that is the least harmonic distance from the A minor, which would be dorian, which would correspond to the key of G. The key of G/Em itself doesn't have to be involved because it shares 6 notes with the key of C/Am anyway. The take home message is you can borrow from neighboring keys and it'll sound relatively consonant, but try borrowing the C#m or F#m from the "parallel major" and you'll sense a lot more tension coming from Am because it's further away in a harmonic sense.

It makes far more sense to say that the IV (specifically the F#) is being taken from the parallel major as a colour chord (or note).

I disagree. To say you're borrowing from the parallel major implies a lot more dissonance than you're actually creating because you're not actually moving that far in a harmonic sense.
#17
Quote by bouttimeijoined
Yes, but why assume borrowing from A major? I assume by default to be borrowing from the mode that is the least harmonic distance from the A minor, which would be dorian, which would correspond to the key of G. The key of G/Em itself doesn't have to be involved because it shares 6 notes with the key of C/Am anyway. The take home message is you can borrow from neighboring keys and it'll sound relatively consonant, but try borrowing the C#m or F#m from the "parallel major" and you'll sense a lot more tension coming from Am because it's further away in a harmonic sense.


You don't 'borrow' chords from close keys. If a piece is in A minor, using a Bb/D chord isn't borrowing from D minor (or A Phyrgian).


Quote by bouttimeijoined
I disagree. To say you're borrowing from the parallel major implies a lot more dissonance than you're actually creating because you're not actually moving that far in a harmonic sense.


I don't think you understand what dissonance is.
#18
^^

A minor and A major share the same tonic.

The tonic is the more prominent note in any music composition.

Chords themselves in a key are harmonically not the strongest. It's about the intervals in them, and the chords happen to be what these combination of intervals are called.

In a minor key, notes are often borrowed from the parallel major, because the natural minor scale misses a few vital notes.

For instance, the minor v in a minor key (ie. Em in the key of Am) often becomes V(7) (ie. E(7)).

This (the leading tone/chord)is technically borrowed from the major scale.

Melodic minor technically borrows an interval from the parallel major as well.

Picardy third is technically also borrowed from the parallel major, and not say as a dominant from D Major.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 21, 2012,
#19
Quote by griffRG7321
You don't 'borrow' chords from close keys. If a piece is in A minor, using a Bb/D chord isn't borrowing from D minor (or A Phyrgian).

No? Then what is using a Bb/D chord in A minor?

Quote by griffRG7321
I don't think you understand what dissonance is.

Here's a quick definition off the top of my head: Dissonance is a context-dependent subjective interpretation of the interplay between the harmonics of a series of two or more notes of which the ratio of fundamental frequencies is relatively complex.

What does dissonance mean to you?

In a minor key, notes are often borrowed from the parallel major, because the natural minor scale misses a few vital notes. For instance, the minor v in a minor key (ie. Em in the key of Am) often becomes V(7) (ie. E(7)). This (the leading tone/chord)is technically borrowed from the major scale. Melodic minor technically borrows an interval from the parallel major as well.

The natural minor scale does miss the leading tone and major 6th, which are obviously useful in composing music in minor keys, but it is a jump to conclude these notes are borrowed from the parallel major just because they appear in the parallel major scale.

That major 6th works because it's present in a neighboring key. It's the same reason why you see D chords so often in songs in the key of C major, in which cases it has the same effect of pulling you back along on the circle of fifths, the D resolves to G and the G in turn resolves back to C.

The leading tone is also explained in terms of the V-I cadence. Regardless of what chord structure you build off of your tonal centre (you correctly mention A major and A minor share the same tonic), the fifth is going to resolve strongly to it. The leading tone serves to emphasize the fifth harmonic of the V, pointing strongly back to the tonic.
#20
^The #6 and #7 aren't really borrowing from the major, you're right in that. But they're not considered borrowing because they're almost ubiquitous in minor (or used to be). The #6 doesn't work because it's in a neighbouring key, it works because it smooths the augmented second created by raising the seventh, which is done in order to create a resolution to the tonic which isn't normally present in minor.

You see D chords in C major because what it does is briefly tonicizes the dominant (G), which is what you basically said, but it has nothing to do with borrowing, it has to do with tonicization. Two different things.

Think about this. When you see an out of key note there are basically 4 different things it could be. It's either:

A) A tonicization (a chord that's altered from the diatonic in order to create a brief tonic on a different scale degree than I)

B) A chord borrowing (which most commonly happens from a parallel mode, but can be something a little bit different as well, but it's not borrowing to create function, it's borrowing to create colour, like the Neapolitan)

C) A chromatic voice leading chord (don't worry about it)

D) Simple passing/neighbour/appogiatura decoration.

Quote by Griff
If a piece is in A minor, using a Bb/D chord isn't borrowing from D minor (or A Phyrgian).


I actually have to disagree with you here (maybe for the first time ever ). The Neapolitan has it's roots in the Phrygian mode and is a borrowing of the b2 from the parallel Phrygian. If it's in root position it's usually called the Phrygian II chord.
#21
Jeez liampje makes more sense
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#22
Quote by jazz_rock_feel

I actually have to disagree with you here (maybe for the first time ever ). The Neapolitan has it's roots in the Phrygian mode and is a borrowing of the b2 from the parallel Phrygian. If it's in root position it's usually called the Phrygian II chord.


(Invalid img)

I'd call it a chromatic alteration of the subdominant or supertonic. I wouldn't call a #iv diminished triad borrowing from the parallel lydian mode either.

If you drag me into a modal debate I will hunt you down and I will cut you
#23
You're not wrong, I'm just slightly more right. What would you call the #ivdim, provided that it wasn't going to V or v (not trying to start anything, I actually don't know)? I don't for a second think it's borrowing from the lydian mode, the only borrowing I know of that actually involves modes other than major or minor is the Neapoltan ( ).
#24
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#25
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
What would you call the #ivdim, provided that it wasn't going to V or v (not trying to start anything, I actually don't know)?


Depends on the function brah
#26
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
^The #6 and #7 aren't really borrowing from the major, you're right in that.

Thank you!

Quote by jazz_rock_feel
But they're not considered borrowing because they're almost ubiquitous in minor (or used to be). The #6 doesn't work because it's in a neighbouring key, it works because it smooths the augmented second created by raising the seventh, which is done in order to create a resolution to the tonic which isn't normally present in minor.

Consider that the #6 works even without the #7. Perhaps in the case of the melodic minor scale you're correct, but for instance in the outrageously common progression of Am - G - D, that F# is coming from the neighboring key. Same goes for a simple Am - D :||, since the G is implied by the third harmonic of the minor 3rd in the tonic chord.

Quote by jazz_rock_feel
You see D chords in C major because what it does is briefly tonicizes the dominant (G), which is what you basically said, but it has nothing to do with borrowing, it has to do with tonicization. Two different things.

Think about this. When you see an out of key note there are basically 4 different things it could be. It's either:

A) A tonicization (a chord that's altered from the diatonic in order to create a brief tonic on a different scale degree than I)

B) A chord borrowing (which most commonly happens from a parallel mode, but can be something a little bit different as well, but it's not borrowing to create function, it's borrowing to create colour, like the Neapolitan)

C) A chromatic voice leading chord (don't worry about it)

D) Simple passing/neighbour/appogiatura decoration.

Good list bro, thanks. By borrowing I just meant referencing another key, in this case the neighbouring G/Em. I'll take your word that tonicization is the correct term for that, seems to make sense. I'm not on top of all the lingo you see.
#27
Quote by griffRG7321
Depends on the function brah


Okay, let's say it goes like IVmaj7 - #ivdim7 (viidim/V?) - viidim4/2 - V7 - I6/4. This is something I actually came across recently and never really came up with a decent explanation. My thought was that, because it's setting up a dominant pedal, it's just the voice leading in the bass going 4-#4-b6 surrounding the dominant that made it work. Functionally I can't really think of how the first diminished chord really fits other than chromatic voice leading.

Quote by bouttime
Consider that the #6 works even without the #7. Perhaps in the case of the melodic minor scale you're correct, but for instance in the outrageously common progression of Am - G - D, that F# is coming from the neighboring key. Same goes for a simple Am - D :||, since the G is implied by the third harmonic of the minor 3rd in the tonic chord.


That's actually a good point, that the #6 doesn't technically need the #7. But, it's still borrowing that #6 from the parallel major (I would say, you could also explain it as using a chord from the melodic minor it's all the same gravy)
#28
Quote by bouttimeijoined
No? Then what is using a Bb/D chord in A minor?

It was a trick, dude. Hook, line, sinker.
#29
Quote by mdc
It was a trick, dude. Hook, line, sinker.


Guess jrf is tricking me too:

Quote by jazz_rock_feel
^The #6 and #7 aren't really borrowing from the major, you're right in that.


Quote by jazz_rock_feel
But, it's still borrowing that #6 from the parallel major


Well im not going to fall for this one ! Fool me once, shame on you etc.
#30
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Jeez liampje makes more sense


i prefer mixing up rests to this shit any day
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#31
Quote by bouttimeijoined
Guess jrf is tricking me too:


Well im not going to fall for this one ! Fool me once, shame on you etc.


Good call. I wasn't actually trying to trick you, I just talked circles around myself.

But here's what I was trying to get across. To me, if you have a #6 that goes to #7 then you aren't really borrowing anything, because that's just a consequence of being in a minor key. If however, you found a #6 just all by itself and it didn't act as expected (the "proper" classical voiceleading for #6 is to go to #7) then I would be more apt to consider it as being borrowed from the parallel major. Note: parallel major. Not a neighbouring key!

As I said, there's a couple of different ways you can consider it, either with the melodic minor or parallel major, but it doesn't really make sense to say it's from a neighbouring key.