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#3
Ron Paul has some good ideas, but they're bundled up with too much crazy to make me want him as a president.

He did a great job responding to this though. **** fox "news."
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Last edited by fearofthemark at Jan 21, 2012,
#5
What exactly makes Ron Paul crazy? I've never really seen anyone concisely present arguments supporting the whole "ron paul is crazy" idea. Could someone please list things that ron paul has said or done that would make him seem crazy? please don't bring up the journals he didn't write. thank you.
Just a sub-par guitar player..

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#6
This is gonna turn into a shitstorm fast.

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#8
Quote by son_of_bodom
What exactly makes Ron Paul crazy? I've never really seen anyone concisely present arguments supporting the whole "ron paul is crazy" idea. Could someone please list things that ron paul has said or done that would make him seem crazy? please don't bring up the journals he didn't write. thank you.


He doesn't believe in separation of church and state, for one.
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#9
Quote by son_of_bodom
What exactly makes Ron Paul crazy? I've never really seen anyone concisely present arguments supporting the whole "ron paul is crazy" idea. Could someone please list things that ron paul has said or done that would make him seem crazy? please don't bring up the journals he didn't write. thank you.



His eyebrows, bro... Just look at his eyebrows as he speaks and you'll understand everything.
#10
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I like anything that makes Fox look stupid.

You must really love Fox then.
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#11
Quote by son_of_bodom
What exactly makes Ron Paul crazy? I've never really seen anyone concisely present arguments supporting the whole "ron paul is crazy" idea. Could someone please list things that ron paul has said or done that would make him seem crazy? please don't bring up the journals he didn't write. thank you.


He's not crazy just different. He believes in legalization of prostitution and all drugs, cutting down on military spending (but creating more defense at home), and giving terrorists trials like US citizens, and things like that.

And also cutting foreign aid.
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Last edited by Jostry at Jan 22, 2012,
#12
Quote by son_of_bodom
What exactly makes Ron Paul crazy? I've never really seen anyone concisely present arguments supporting the whole "ron paul is crazy" idea. Could someone please list things that ron paul has said or done that would make him seem crazy? please don't bring up the journals he didn't write. thank you.

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/wrong-paul/
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#13
Quote by Jostry
He's not crazy just different. He believes in legalization of prostitution and all drugs, cutting down on military spending (but creating more defense at home), and giving terrorists trials like US citizens, and things like that.

He crazy.
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#14
Quote by Jostry
He's not crazy just different. He believes in legalization of prostitution and all drugs, cutting down on military spending (but creating more defense at home), and giving terrorists trials like US citizens, and things like that.


That's the good stuff. He's also against taxing corporations and the rich for their fare share. And he's against government benefit programs like Medicare and social security.
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#16
Quote by fearofthemark
He doesn't believe in separation of church and state, for one.

Untrue.
What you are referring to is the We the People Act which is often cited as Paul trying to remove separation of Church and State. It is, in actuality, a further example of his trying to remove federal power and concentrate more power locally in the states (which is generally a good idea, localisation of power is good for democracy).
I disagree with the act in some regards, but its general thrust is not to remove separation of church and state at all, it would simply allow states to regulate that on their own free from intervention by federal courts.
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#17
Ron Paul was probably all "Only Ron Paul makes Ron Paul look stupid! Gold standard! Let sick people die! The church will provide health care for sick people! Yawh!"
*-)
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#19
I still think it's funny that there are so many Ron Paul threads here.
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#20
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Untrue.
What you are referring to is the We the People Act which is often cited as Paul trying to remove separation of Church and State. It is, in actuality, a further example of his trying to remove federal power and concentrate more power locally in the states (which is generally a good idea, localisation of power is good for democracy).
I disagree with the act in some regards, but its general thrust is not to remove separation of church and state at all, it would simply allow states to regulate that on their own free from intervention by federal courts.


I'm actually referring to what he wrote:

The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion.
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#21
^
Which doesn't indicate that he's against separation of Church and State at all, simply that he understands what it really means (no established religion, not no religion in the public square at all)

In fact, you left out that line for some reason:
" The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."

Quote by fearofthemark
That's the good stuff. He's also against taxing corporations and the rich for their fare share. And he's against government benefit programs like Medicare and social security.

He's said he would prop up Medicare with savings from bringing troops home.

His ideology is against Medicare.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
Last edited by Ur all $h1t at Jan 22, 2012,
#23
Quote by Jostry
He's not crazy just different. He believes in legalization of prostitution and all drugs,


Actually, Ron Paul believes in making things like, drugs, and prostitution into a state level affair. I've never once heard Ron Paul say he wants to legalize prostitution and drugs, its always inaccurately implied after he says he wants to return more rights to the states.

Quote by Jostry
cutting down on military spending (but creating more defense at home), and giving terrorists trials like US citizens, and things like that.


I'm perplexed as to why cutting down on spending, and protecting our own borders, in the middle of an economic crisis is such a radical position to take. Also, I'd say everyone is entitled to some type of trial upon seizure. Because ya' know, indefinite detention on on the premise of nothing more than allegation is absurd.

Quote by Jostry
And also cutting foreign aid.


When we're approaching 20 trillion dollars in national debt, it's not an outlandish idea.

I realize you're not saying he's crazy, but when you say hes "different", look at what the norm has become.

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This is from damn near 4 years ago
Just a sub-par guitar player..

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Let's make this the Pit's motto:

"Forever alone, together"



IS THIS FREEDOM, OR CONFINEMENT?! FREE MOSCOE_ESPANOL!!!
Last edited by son_of_bodom at Jan 22, 2012,
#24
Quote by Ur all $h1t
^
Which doesn't indicate that he's against separation of Church and State at all, simply that he understands what it really means (no established religion, not no religion in the public square at all)

In fact, you left out that line for some reason:
" The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."


He's said he would prop up Medicare with savings from bringing troops home.

His ideology is against Medicare.



I liked you more before you came across as a Paulbot.
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#26
Quote by son_of_bodom
Actually, Ron Paul believes in making things like, drugs, and prostitution into a state level affair. I've never once heard Ron Paul say he wants to legalize prostitution and drugs, its always inaccurately implied after he says he wants to return more rights to the states.


I'm perplexed as to why cutting down on spending, and protecting our own borders, in the middle of an economic crisis is such a radical position to take. Also, I'd say everyone is entitled to some type of trial upon seizure. Because ya' know, indefinite detention on on the premise of nothing more than allegation is absurd.


When we're approaching 20 trillion dollars in national debt, it's not an outlandish idea.

I realize you're not saying he's crazy, but when you say hes "different", look at what the norm has become.


Oh no, don't get me wrong, I support Ron Paul and I want him to become president *flame shield on* but his views compared to a normal republican are different, you can't deny that.
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Last edited by Jostry at Jan 22, 2012,
#27
Quote by Ur all $h1t
^
Which doesn't indicate that he's against separation of Church and State at all, simply that he understands what it really means (no established religion, not no religion in the public square at all)

In fact, you left out that line for some reason:
" The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."


He's said he would prop up Medicare with savings from bringing troops home.

His ideology is against Medicare.


When did you turn into a Paulbot? I thought you were intelligent.

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#28
Quote by Tyler.Allain
Democracy is not better when power is centralized in the state. The federal government has done a better job at liberating the individual and protecting individual rights than the state did. I.E the expansion of the tenth amendment right to include personal autonomy leading to the Roe v. Wade decision.

Giving more power to the states is a HORRIBLE idea. It would result in a devolution a history of equal rights. Thats why Ron Paul is crazy in the first place.

Legalizing on drugs? Since when is that a good thing? Pot..sure great...and I don't even smoke. Prostitution? While I don't have any practical arguments against that one I don't think the government should legalize it to turn profit because i think profiting on vice is morally bankrupt and something our government shouldn't do.

He also wants to cut many very important sectors of government out....hes an absolute idiot.


I agree with a lot of what you're saying, except the drug bit. Drugs should be legal. I'm on my phone so I won't give a full argument, but go to the user Meths, and read his blog concerning drug legalization.
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#30
Quote by Tyler.Allain
Democracy is not better when power is centralized in the state. The federal government has done a better job at liberating the individual and protecting individual rights than the state did. I.E the expansion of the tenth amendment right to include personal autonomy leading to the Roe v. Wade decision.

Giving more power to the states is a HORRIBLE idea. It would result in a devolution a history of equal rights. Thats why Ron Paul is crazy in the first place.


This.

America already learned the lessons of having a weak central government with the colossal failure of the Articles of Confederation. Giving the states too much power has proved time and time again a terrible idea and has had disastrous consequences.
#32
Quote by WaterGod
This.

America already learned the lessons of having a weak central government with the colossal failure of the Articles of Confederation. Giving the states too much power has proved time and time again a terrible idea and has had disastrous consequences.


I agree completely, take the Civil Rights Act of 1965, if the states had their way, cough South Carolina cough, minorities would not have the right to vote, I believe in a strong federal government that's all.
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#33
Quote by Tyler.Allain
Ron Paul is all over the place...he definitely doesn't conform to the views held by an individual who falls on point of the left right political spectrum. Another reason I don't like him. I tend to be slightly left of a centrist. Hes radical right on fiscal policy and sometimes radical left on social policy...with the exception of his separation of church and state views.

It's not all over the place. It's just a classical liberalism stance which endorses minimal state intervention.


Also, on the sex trade stuff, as it stands the prostitution industry does not adhere to labour law or any safety standards. It poses a risk to both the prostitutes and their customers and current policing efforts are ineffective to stem this. There's one reason for state intervention I guess

Quote by fearofthemark
I'm not going to go too far into federal vs. state laws, but creating 50 different laws when one would do the job creates unnecessary political clutter and wastes unnecessary time.

Sometimes it is necessary. Why should say a traditionally conservative state be bound by laws dictated by a liberal majority or vice versa? Each state would have their own personal circumstances and a blanket legislation is neither helpful nor efficient. Federal rule should only be necessary in inter-state matters.
Last edited by Cianyx at Jan 22, 2012,
#34
Quote by Ur all $h1t
^
Which doesn't indicate that he's against separation of Church and State at all, simply that he understands what it really means (no established religion, not no religion in the public square at all)

In fact, you left out that line for some reason:
" The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."


He's said he would prop up Medicare with savings from bringing troops home.

His ideology is against Medicare.


I didn't leave anything out on purpose, I'm on my phone and grabbed the first quote that looked like what I've read before. Also, there should be NO religious talk in politics. Outdated beliefs based on ancient myths is no way to run a modern government. Regardless of what the founding fathers meant (there was significantly less religious diversity in america during the 1700s than there is now), we NEED a rigid separation of church and state.

I'm not going to go too far into federal vs. state laws, but creating 50 different laws when one would do the job creates unnecessary political clutter and wastes unnecessary time.
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#35
Quote by Tyler.Allain
Democracy is not better when power is centralized in the state. The federal government has done a better job at liberating the individual and protecting individual rights than the state did. I.E the expansion of the tenth amendment right to include personal autonomy leading to the Roe v. Wade decision. .

Giving more power to the states is a HORRIBLE idea. It would result in a devolution a history of equal rights. Thats why Ron Paul is crazy in the first place..


I disagree fundamentally with this, as anyone facing a federalised Europe, or living in a country where local government and the increased quality of involvement that it allows produced our independence from a foreign power, or anyone with a basic understanding of information flow in economics, would disagree.

Local government allows for better decision making on many issues, as local knowledge is incredibly important for symmetrical information in economic decision making. This is partly responsible for increased efficiency in areas where the private sector is more efficient. It also decreases significantly barriers to entry for lower income earners in procuring political power and, crucially, access to their politicians. It increases accountability.

As for Civil Rights, those should be (and generally are) guaranteed by the constitution. This would not be changed by Paul, or anyone else.

Finally, the history of the expansion of liberty is a history of struggles by oppressed groups, not a history of benevolent action by enlightened men. Rich hands moved the pens only after poor fists forced them. This would happen under localised power just as easily, if not more so due to the decreased difficulty of campaigning.
The Federal governments history on providing for equal rights is not a History of swift selfless action.

Legalizing on drugs? Since when is that a good thing? Pot..sure great...and I don't even smoke. Prostitution? While I don't have any practical arguments against that one I don't think the government should legalize it to turn profit because i think profiting on vice is morally bankrupt and something our government shouldn't do.


You're wrong.

To take Heroin as an example:

Before people start talking about how legalising heroin is really really bad and evil, please read this. There's a lack of good information about heroin, and a lot of misinformation in the media and education.


Opiates like heroin are highly addictive, however the health risks from chronic exposure are remarkably and surprisingly minor. The main direct risks are constipation, pupil restriction, menstrual irregularity, and reduced libido. many opiate addicts have taken pure heroin or morphine for years with no serious ill effects. In fact, opiate addiction is more prevalent amongst doctors, nurses, and dentists than among other professionals (e.g, Brewster, 1986)

"An individual tolerant to and dependant upon an opiate who is socially or financially capable of obtaining an adequate supply of good quality drug, sterile syringes and needles, and other paraphernalia may maintain his or her proper social and occupational functions, remain in fairly good health, and suffer little serious incapacitation as a result of dependence. (Julien, 1981 p.117)

One such individual was Dr. William Steward Halsted, one of the founders of Johns Hopkins Medical School and one of the most brilliant surgeons of his day . . . Known as "the father of modern surgery." And yet, during his career he was addicted to morphine, a fact that he was able to keep secret from all but his closest friends. In fact, the only time his habit caused him any trouble was when he was attempting to reduce his dosage (McKim, 1986, p.197)"

Most of the risks of opiate addiction come from the fact that the drug is illegal.


In 1994 the Swiss government took an alternative approach to the problem of heroin addiction - despite substantial opposition from the Swiss public. It established a series of clinics in which, as part of a total treatment package, Swiss heroin addicts could receive heroin injections for a small fee. The Swiss government wisely funded a major research programme to evaluate the clinics (See Gschwend et el., 2002). The results have been uniformly positive: Addicts are no longer a presence in the streets and parks; drug related crime has substantially declined; the physical and social well-being of the addicts has greatly improved; there has been a decrease in heroin use by addicts; and the number of new addicts has declined. (see Brehmer & Iten, 2001; De Preux, Dubois-Arber, & Zobel, 2004; Guttinger et al., 2003; Nordt & Stohler, 2006; Rehm et al., 2001)

There is absolutely no logical reason not to legalise drugs like heroin.


As for profiting on vice being morally bankrupt, enforcing your personal morality on others is far more morally bankrupt. See: JS Mill's Harm Principle:

The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.




He also wants to cut many very important sectors of government out....hes an absolute idiot

I agree, although I don't think he's an idiot, just that he's not right on everything (or even most things) he's just right on some very important things, generally to do with issues of civil liberties and corporatism.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#36
Love it how she turns all red by the end of the interview...."God I must have been soo stupid to push him on that issue...what was I thinking!"
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But theres no reason why i cant be free like a raspberry stuck to the back of a horny elephants ass.

This is maybe the worst comparison in the history of comparisons.
#37
Quote by StewieSwan
I liked you more before you came across as a Paulbot.

I see no problem with supporting Ron Paul on issues where I feel he is right. I would viciously oppose him on the many areas where I feel he's wrong.

I'm a Rawlsian, not a Paulbot or whatever.
According to Rawls' Theory of Justice the first Principle of Justice is:

First: each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive basic liberty compatible with a similar liberty for others.

This is the stuff I agree with Paul on. It's profoundly important, without it nothing else can flow properly.


The Second principle is:

Social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that:
(a) they are to be of the greatest benefit to the least-advantaged members of society (the difference principle).
(b) offices and positions must be open to everyone under conditions of fair equality of opportunity


Here Paul and I disagree massively.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#38
Quote by Tyler.Allain
Democracy is not better when power is centralized in the state. The federal government has done a better job at liberating the individual and protecting individual rights than the state did. I.E the expansion of the tenth amendment right to include personal autonomy leading to the Roe v. Wade decision.

Giving more power to the states is a HORRIBLE idea. It would result in a devolution a history of equal rights. Thats why Ron Paul is crazy in the first place.

Legalizing on drugs? Since when is that a good thing? Pot..sure great...and I don't even smoke. Prostitution? While I don't have any practical arguments against that one I don't think the government should legalize it to turn profit because i think profiting on vice is morally bankrupt and something our government shouldn't do.

He also wants to cut many very important sectors of government out....hes an absolute idiot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Eca-INIOw
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#39
Quote by Ur all $h1t
*Stuff about localized governance*


The conditions you're talking about simply don't exist in the United States. The fact of the matter is that civil rights legislation here exists only because some of the privileged, white, elite took up those causes. At the end of the day, we still had to use the military to desegregate.

The US almost fell apart the last time significant power was ceded to the states themselves.

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#40
Quote by Dirge Humani
I swear if all this Ron Paul nonsense comes to UG I'm leaving.



You say that as though your comment will make everyone in this thread immediately stop posting just so you don't leave. Don't bother saying it, just go ahead and leave.
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