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#1
okay, first i want to say i do know music theory :P

okay, so i understand D dorian is DEFGABCD, but i also see dorian modes listed as 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b 1. so does that mean i can play D dorian as C D Eb F G A Bb C?
I hate when people compare John Frusciante to God. He's
good and all.............but he's no Frusciante.
#2
That means that the notes of the Dorian mode are related to the major scale in that way. For example, taking the C major scale and flattening the 3rd and 7th would make the C Dorian mode (C D Eb F G A Bb C). Now, actually getting something to sound modal is a completely different ball game.
#3
d major is d e f# g a b c#

the 3rd and 7th are flattened to make d minor with a major 6th.

i don't think you know music theory
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#4
There is no such thing as a quick question about modes. Ever.

I may be misunderstanding your question, but it sounds rooted in a flawed understanding of modes. My advice would be to go read Colohue's collumn on the subject, it's very good.
#5
Quote by Wolffgang
There is no such thing as a quick question about modes. Ever.

I may be misunderstanding your question, but it sounds rooted in a flawed understanding of modes. My advice would be to go read Colohue's collumn on the subject, it's very good.


i like you, this is all right. i just hate always being the one being a semantic bitch about modes
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#6
TS I see that you like John Frusicante. Did you know that he only plays major, minor and blues scales? Good stuff.
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#7
Quote by BornToLive
okay, first i want to say i do know music theory :P

okay, so i understand D dorian is DEFGABCD, but i also see dorian modes listed as 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b 1. so does that mean i can play C dorian as C D Eb F G A Bb C?

Fixed.

The scale by itself is C Dorian, yes. In context however, it's highly unlikely you'll be using it as a mode, but rather a scale.

Incidentally, please make sure you label the flat signs before the interval, and not after. You don't notate like that I do hope....
#8
okay 1st i know he plays that, but im starting to get into jazz :P 2nd ill read that column, and 3rd i do know music theory, im in grade 6 conservatory and ive been playing music for like 8 years (im not being cocky just proving my point)
I hate when people compare John Frusciante to God. He's
good and all.............but he's no Frusciante.
#9
i don't know how i didn't see the c as the starting tone, good catch
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#10
and sorry about the flat signs i realize now you don't say "three flat" you say "flat three" , i don't usually write it down i just say it
I hate when people compare John Frusciante to God. He's
good and all.............but he's no Frusciante.
#11
Quote by BornToLive
okay, first i want to say i do know music theory :P

lol another one

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#12
Quote by Xiaoxi
lol another one


??
I hate when people compare John Frusciante to God. He's
good and all.............but he's no Frusciante.
#14
Quote by BornToLive
??


If you "knew" music theory, why ask a question about it? You'd know the answer.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#15
-_- fine, i stand corrected:

okay, first i want to say i do know an intermediate amount of music theory :P

that better?
I hate when people compare John Frusciante to God. He's
good and all.............but he's no Frusciante.
#16
Quote by BornToLive
-_- fine, i stand corrected:

okay, first i want to say i do know an intermediate amount of music theory :P

that better?


It's unclear how much you know, but the answer is above for you.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#17
In your first post, you identify the interval structure of the Dorian scale in the key of D. You then proceed to ask whether D Dorian can also be a collection of completely different notes, not even in D. So, I'm a little unsure if you actually 'know' theory. I'm not saying you don't have a good education or anything, but for someone to make such a weird and even laughable mistake makes me hope that was just a typo.
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#19
Quote by BornToLive
okay, first i want to say i do know music theory :P

okay, so i understand D dorian is DEFGABCD, but i also see dorian modes listed as 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b 1. so does that mean i can play D dorian as C D Eb F G A Bb C?



Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. Back up....

Do you mean C Dorian?

Best,

Sean
#20
Don't bother with modes. Modes are never based on a SCALE! It's all in the Harmony. You could play "D Dorian" all day, but until you put that harmony behind it, it's just a C major scale starting and ending on D. And even if you add a harmony, I doubt you'd ever get it right for it to be D Dorian. Study harmony then ask.

Cheers,
Xter
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#21
Quote by Xter
Don't bother with modes. Modes are never based on a SCALE! It's all in the Harmony. You could play "D Dorian" all day, but until you put that harmony behind it, it's just a C major scale starting and ending on D. And even if you add a harmony, I doubt you'd ever get it right for it to be D Dorian. Study harmony then ask.

Cheers,
Xter


...Except modal music existed before even the most basic of harmonic principals had been developed.
#22
Quote by griffRG7321
...Except modal music existed before even the most basic of harmonic principals had been developed.


Are you talking Modern Modes or Church modes?...
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#23
Quote by Xter
Are you talking Modern Modes or Church modes?...


Oh lord... 170 posts or more, here we go
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#24
Quote by Xter
Are you talking Modern Modes or Church modes?...


Both.

Having a i - IV chord sequence doesn't make a song in the Dorian mode. It's completely tonal.

There's no point in labeling anything like that modal nowadays IMO.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Feb 6, 2012,
#25
Quote by griffRG7321
Both.

Having a i - IV chord sequence doesn't make a song in the Dorian mode. It's completely tonal.

There's no point in labeling anything like that modal nowadays IMO.


I never stated it did make it modal. You'd need a vamp and different progression to make that modal. I stated that modes are all about Harmony and not on scales. You can't be modal playing a "D Dorian Scale" over any C major progression or D major progression. Modes do not equal keys that the root note starts on. Modes are more of their "own key". If you want to start a modal war, start with someone who has a more vague post.

And before you start with my reference to a C major progression, and D major progression. I stated that because people just exploring modes tend to think that's what it is, and people who do not know basic harmony start right on C major or D major progressions for D Dorian.

Cheers,
Xter
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#26
Quote by griffRG7321
There's no point in labeling anything like that modal nowadays IMO.


+ infinity.

Quote by Xter
I never stated it did make it modal. You'd need a vamp and different progression to make that modal. I stated that modes are all about Harmony and not on scales. You can't be modal playing a "D Dorian Scale" over any C major progression or D major progression. Modes do not equal keys that the root note starts on. Modes are more of their "own key". If you want to start a modal war, start with someone who has a more vague post.


a vague post? only thing better than a vague post to start a war is one that has incorrect information.

"modes are their own key"? first of all, that's vague AND incorrect. so by your logic, i'm completely justified in starting a modal war. which is great, because i totally need validation anyway.

explain to me how/why i couldn't explain a simple Ebm - Ab7 vamp as being in the key of Eb minor.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Feb 6, 2012,
#27
Quote by Xter
I never stated it did make it modal.


You said it required harmony, I gave the two chords that a lot of people seem to call a Dorian vamp.

Quote by Xter
You'd need a vamp and different progression to make that modal. I stated that modes are all about Harmony and not on scales.


Please enlighten us to these 'modal' progressions...
#28
Quote by AeolianWolf



a vague post? only thing better than a vague post to start a war is one that has incorrect information.

"modes are their own key"? first of all, that's vague AND incorrect. so by your logic, i'm completely justified in starting a modal war. which is great, because i totally need validation anyway.

explain to me how/why i couldn't explain a simple Ebm - Ab7 vamp as being in the key of Eb minor.


You are cutting out part of my post which in terms makes you look right. If you quote me, quote everything, not a segment. I said more of their own key. I didn't say they are entirely their own key. I said this because they don't sound like the standard major and minor scales you hear. They all have a different quality because of the intervals. Just like a Natural minor scale doesn't sound like a Harmonic Minor Scale. They have different intervals.

I never said you couldn't so don't attack me. I said if you want it modal it needs a vamp and different progression. So if you want to stay true to the example, don't add a dominant 7th to that IV chord. Yes that is in Eb minor, but if you are trying to argue it's modal, just no. There's a pull to the v which in term implies the Eb as the tonic, and if we want modal, we are not trying to make a pull back to the tonic Eb.
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#29
Quote by Xter
You are cutting out part of my post which in terms makes you look right. If you quote me, quote everything, not a segment. I said more of their own key. I didn't say they are entirely their own key. I said this because they don't sound like the standard major and minor scales you hear. They all have a different quality because of the intervals. Just like a Natural minor scale doesn't sound like a Harmonic Minor Scale. They have different intervals.

I never said you couldn't so don't attack me. I said if you want it modal it needs a vamp and different progression. So if you want to stay true to the example, don't add a dominant 7th to that IV chord. Yes that is in Eb minor, but if you are trying to argue it's modal, just no. There's a pull to the v which in term implies the Eb as the tonic, and if we want modal, we are not trying to make a pull back to the tonic Eb.


quoted everything, even the completely irrelevant stuff, so you won't have anything to bitch about.

...dude, just stop. you don't know a god damn thing about modes if you're trying to tell me that we don't want to pull back to Eb in that vamp. and whether that Gb is in the Ab chord makes no difference. you're fooling only yourself if you think it does. there is no pull to anywhere but Ebm. i can make it Em9 - Ab13 if i wanted to. that could still classify as dorian (which isn't really even dorian, but easily explainable as being in a minor key).

suffice it to say that anything that you think is in a mode is not. it can easily be explained as being in a key, which is far less restrictive than a mode. griff had it right -- there is absolutely no point in labeling anything as modal nowadays. we all think modal jazzers were the most brilliant musicians to ever exist. yeah no. not even close. they made some brilliant music. but all they did was secure their place as the first people to play fancy words instead of music. they went back to the church modes, misunderstood them, and went on with it. the sound is the same but the underlying principle is objectively flawed.

modes are not "entirely their own key". they are not "more of their own key". phrase it however you want. just the fact that you're linking modes to keys is a dead giveaway to me that you're just pulling shit out of your ass (either that or you genuinely have NO idea of anything about modes).

i'd tell you not to respond, but you will, because you're going to defend your blind approach. so since you're going to respond anyway, explain how quoting only one paragraph is manipulating your quote to make me look right. because last i checked, it's a full paragraph, and the second paragraph (as well as the "cheers, which you seem to feel the need to include in every post) has absolutely no bearing on the discussion. so do explain to me how i, in any way, twisted, manipulated, or otherwise altered what you said in an attempt to make myself look right. because frankly, all i see is that your argument is so weak and unfounded that it doesn't have a leg to stand on, and you have to bring attention to even the smallest irrelevant detail. you have nowhere to run now, so let's see what you have to say.
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#31
^ There's a difference between Dorian being used as a mode, and as a scale.
#34
Quote by Matt.Guitar
Ah ha I see.
So it's a terminology thing?
I'm pretty much never gonna say the word mode again unless I MEAN it!

It's ok to say I'm playing the Dorian scale over the Dm7 chord, but I shouldn't say I'm playing the Dorian mode...?


It's not true Dorian but according to the guy up there use it as freely as you want.

Cheers,
Xter
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#35
Quote by Xter
It's not true Dorian but according to the guy up there use it as freely as you want.

Cheers,
Xter

There's a lot of conflict between how the Classical and Jazz musicians think, in certain aspects, especially here...

... and no, that's not how it's "according" to me.


ffs. Ignorance pisses me off beyond belief.
Last edited by mdc at Feb 6, 2012,
#36
Quote by mdc
There's a lot of conflict between how the Classical and Jazz musicians think, in certain aspects, especially here...

... and no, that's not how it's "according" to me.


ffs. Ignorance pisses me off beyond belief.


Not you mdc, i'm talking about Aeolianwolf. Thinks I-IV makes a modal work of art.
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#37
Quote by Xter
Not you mdc, i'm talking about Aeolianwolf. Thinks I-IV makes a modal work of art.


...clearly you're not reading what I wrote. i'm saying it's NOT modal. none of this bullshit is. it's all in keys.

but the burden of proof is on you, little man. when you refute my points, then you can talk. so if you have the knowledge, refute it. if you don't, don't talk smack. we're all still waiting.
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#38
mdc is right, jazz musicians have their way of thinking with can be pretty eccentric to a lot of people, but it does work in jazz. they're a lot quicker to say dorian rather than minor with major 6, which is where a lot of the conflict from this comes from.

i'm somewhere to the point where if you're gonna call something something, you should do it right, but i personally don't care when it comes to my own way of writing/thinking/playing.

as for xter: easy with the passive aggressiveness. we try to keep it to niceness or straight up flaming, no middle ground. aeolian generally knows what he's talking about, i haven't read any of this though so don't take me seriously
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Last edited by Hail at Feb 6, 2012,
#39
Quote by Hail
mdc is right, jazz musicians have their way of thinking with can be pretty eccentric to a lot of people, but it does work in jazz. they're a lot quicker to say dorian rather than minor with major 6, which is where a lot of the conflict from this comes from.

i'm somewhere to the point where if you're gonna call something something, you should do it right, but i personally don't care when it comes to my own way of writing/thinking/playing.

as for xter: easy with the passive aggressiveness. we try to keep it to niceness or straight up flaming, no middle ground. aeolian generally knows what he's talking about, i haven't read any of this though so don't take me seriously


I like your thinking there

Quote by AeolianWolf
...clearly you're not reading what I wrote. i'm saying it's NOT modal. none of this bullshit is. it's all in keys.

but the burden of proof is on you, little man. when you refute my points, then you can talk. so if you have the knowledge, refute it. if you don't, don't talk smack. we're all still waiting.


I stopped reading after the large paragraph of text I didn't feel like reading I stated clearly none of it was, you argued with me about it being in a key, which I agreed it was, because I described modes as different way then you would.

How about we agree to disagree because obiviously whatever you are doing works for you, and whatever I'm doing works for me. I think what Hail said about the Jazz musician thinking is what is arising here as the problem. Personally, I never will say that DEFGABCD is D Dorian unless there's a harmony that makes it modulate.
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Last edited by Xter at Feb 6, 2012,
#40
The books that say 'use the Dorian mode over a minor 7 chord' aren't actually talking modally though. They're using the term 'Dorian mode' to mean playing the scale over that chord.

Which is really just an educational tool - it's only something beginner improvisers really use anyways.

I don't understand the fuss about modes, btw. Other than a very specific period of jazz and a very small part of progressive metal (even the majority of prog rock/metal is still tonal rather than modal), they're not really that useful. Although I'll be happy to retract that statement if someone can prove me wrong.
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