#1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgaXJXk6hgA

It's that amazing outro part to Sympton of the Universe by Sabbath.

I figure its something in F#m/Amaj. Iommi is switching between what I believe its a variation of both, but could someone kindly elaborate which ones he's really tearing it up on? Just trying to apply what I learn on my own.
#2
Sounds like a classic ii7-V "dorian vamp". Assuming the tonic there is the F#, he's using the F# dorian mode, sticking to F# minor pentatonic for a few parts, and maybe a blues note (the flat 5th, in this case C natural note) thrown in for colour if I recall correctly.
#3
you don't going from a mode to pentatonic to blues

what

ts: they're the same thing, he's in f#m using the amajor shapes but they're still f#m.
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#4
Quote by bouttimeijoined
Sounds like a classic ii7-V "dorian vamp". Assuming the tonic there is the F#, he's using the F# dorian mode, sticking to F# minor pentatonic for a few parts, and maybe a blues note (the flat 5th, in this case C natural note) thrown in for colour if I recall correctly.


i or I is the tonic. If the progression was in F# dorian you would be describing a chord progression as G#m7 - C#. Is this the progression you are describing? If you employed the V it would simply become in the key of F#m, due to the strong cadence employed. You'd be describing a standard jazz progression, an ii7 - V - I, without the I played.
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#5
Sounds like a classic i-IV "dorian vamp". Assuming the tonic there is the F#, he's using the F# dorian mode, sticking to F# minor pentatonic for a few parts, and maybe a blues note (the flat 5th, in this case C natural note) thrown in for colour if I recall correctly.
#7
Quote by FlexEXP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgaXJXk6hgA

It's that amazing outro part to Sympton of the Universe by Sabbath.

I figure its something in F#m/Amaj. Iommi is switching between what I believe its a variation of both, but could someone kindly elaborate which ones he's really tearing it up on? Just trying to apply what I learn on my own.


typical i - IV Dorian vamp. (F#m - B in this case)

as far as I can tell the scales used are:

F# dorian
F# minor pentatonic & minor blues
+

some chromatic notes
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 6, 2012,
#8
Sounds like a classic i-IV "dorian vamp". Assuming the tonic there is the F#, he's using the F# dorian mode, sticking to F# minor pentatonic for a few parts, and maybe a blues note

#10
Quote by Brainpolice2
Dorian exists? Truimph!


certainly does
shred is gaudy music
#11
Quote by GuitarMunky
certainly does


yep! you two think one way, and i think another.

and there's absolutely nothing that makes either of our views intrinsically correct.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#12
Quote by AeolianWolf
yep! you two think one way, and i think another.

and there's absolutely nothing that makes either of our views intrinsically correct.



How do you think of it?
shred is gaudy music
#14
Quote by griffRG7321
i - IV in minor.


If it wasn't a vamp, and/or included more chords I might see it that way, but as is I would consider dorian a more appropriate term, and a less cumbersome way of thinking about it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 7, 2012,
#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
If it wasn't a vamp, and/or included more chords I might see it that way, but as is I would consider dorian a more appropriate term, and a less cumbersome way of thinking about it.


so you're saying that if it's a vamp, it can't be in a key? and that since there are fewer chords in can't be in a key? and that learning modes and referring to them instead of just thinking of music as having functional harmony and being in keys is less cumbersome?

i'm not being a wise-ass, i'm legitimately trying to understand other viewpoints.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#16
Quote by AeolianWolf
so you're saying that if it's a vamp, it can't be in a key?

and that since there are fewer chords in can't be in a key? and that learning modes and referring to them instead of just thinking of music as having functional harmony and being in keys is less cumbersome?

i'm not being a wise-ass, i'm legitimately trying to understand other viewpoints.


I didn't say any of that. I'd try to explain it to you, but based on past experiences I choose to opt out of the endless and pointless argument that it will inevitably become.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 8, 2012,
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
I didn't say any of that. I'd try to explain it to you, but based on past experiences I choose to opt out of the endless and pointless argument that it will inevitably become.


aeolian suggested the idea in some other thread recently that all modes are actually obsolete and are explainable to the point of extermination by tonality

and he was basically bringing that idea over here to this thread

personally i think it's an interesting and logical theory, you should get some coffee and fight him on it cause i'm interested as to how it'll play out.
Quote by Kevätuhri
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#18
Quote by Hail
aeolian suggested the idea in some other thread recently that all modes are actually obsolete and are explainable to the point of extermination by tonality

and he was basically bringing that idea over here to this thread

personally i think it's an interesting and logical theory, you should get some coffee and fight him on it cause i'm interested as to how it'll play out.

well, if you think it's interesting, you should be the one discussing it with him. I think it's a foolish idea, but I'm not concerned with changing his mind or anything.

and ps, don't instigate arguments, this place has enough of them already. Go grab a coffee and start reading if thats what you're into.
shred is gaudy music
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
well, if you think it's interesting, you should be the one discussing it with him. I think it's a foolish idea, but I'm not concerned with changing his mind or anything.

i, at large, agree with him, though. nothing to gain from two people nodding at each other.

and ps, don't instigate arguments, this place has enough of them already. Go grab a coffee and start reading if thats what you're into.


i wasn't being serious, if i wanted to start an argument it would have started by now.

but as i said above, i only think it's in minor.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


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#20
Quote by Hail
aeolian suggested the idea in some other thread recently that all modes are actually obsolete and are explainable to the point of extermination by tonality

This is correct.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#21
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i'm the internet equivalent of ripping the skin off my face and strangling you with it right now


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#22
Quote by GuitarMunky
typical i - IV Dorian vamp. (F#m - B in this case)

as far as I can tell the scales used are:

F# dorian
F# minor pentatonic & minor blues
+

some chromatic notes


Yep! I forgot to mention he's doing F#m/B in this, I figured that out on my own (Yes, I am proud that things are always clicking).

I must read more on this I-IV vamp because it damn well sounds like a good blues jam/song structure to follow on making a song!
#23
FlexEXP Careful, it's a lowercase i. And yes it is a good jam structure, which is why it's so common. Outrageously common you might say.
#24
It's easier to think of it as a ii - V in E major though.
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Quote by steven seagull
Big deal, I bought a hamster once and they put that in a box...doesn't make it a scale.
#25
Quote by yM.Samurai
It's easier to think of it as a ii - V in E major though.


So you're saying it's in E major?
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#26
No, I'm only responding to the above two posts about a i - IV in F# Dorian.
Quote by metal4all
Just, no. Locrian should be treated like that gay cousin. Just avoid him cuz he's weird, unstable, and is attracted to the wrong thing.


Quote by steven seagull
Big deal, I bought a hamster once and they put that in a box...doesn't make it a scale.
#27
Quote by yM.Samurai
No, I'm only responding to the above two posts about a i - IV in F# Dorian.


Well E major resolves to E, and F# dorian resolves to F#. Can't have it resolving to two places at once matey.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#28
Yeah. I don't hear any resolution, though - I hear the F#m - B pulling towards an E major, exactly as a ii - V progression does.
Quote by metal4all
Just, no. Locrian should be treated like that gay cousin. Just avoid him cuz he's weird, unstable, and is attracted to the wrong thing.


Quote by steven seagull
Big deal, I bought a hamster once and they put that in a box...doesn't make it a scale.
#29
Quote by yM.Samurai
Yeah. I don't hear any resolution, though - I hear the F#m - B pulling towards an E major, exactly as a ii - V progression does.


Hey fair enough. I'd say it's resolving to F#.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#30
I think I've conditioned my ears. The amount of jazz I've been listening to recently means that I ALWAYS expect to hear the progression completed. If you know what I mean.
Quote by metal4all
Just, no. Locrian should be treated like that gay cousin. Just avoid him cuz he's weird, unstable, and is attracted to the wrong thing.


Quote by steven seagull
Big deal, I bought a hamster once and they put that in a box...doesn't make it a scale.
#31
Quote by yM.Samurai
I think I've conditioned my ears. The amount of jazz I've been listening to recently means that I ALWAYS expect to hear the progression completed. If you know what I mean.


An ii - V - I in jazz? Say it isn't so!
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#32
Quote by Xiaoxi
This is correct.


i love you, man.

GM has it right about not starting needless arguments, though.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.