#1
So this is my attempt to write a song in the mode of C phrygian. My approach was to establish a tonal center on C, and construct melodies and harmonies strictly from the notes of the C phrygian scale.

http://soundcloud.com/user8422058/fridge

However, as I was politely informed in another thread, if you have a chord progression, you're probably not in a mode. In fact it was my presentation of the very chord progression I used here, Cm, Gdim, Eb7, Dbmaj7#11, that was met with suspicion of jokery on my part.

So help me out here, if it's not correct to call this phrygian, how do you go about describing the key of this piece?

(Keep in mind this was not an attempt to create 15th century church music)
#3
This would be in phrygian i believe except for if only strictly using notes from the C phrygian scale a Dbmaj7#11 would not work because that #11 i think would be an E but other than that everything works out
#4
Quote by Matt.Guitar
Sounds like it's in C minor to me, but with a b2.
I've no idea why - I can't be assed to analyse it, my ears just hear minor, not phrygian, despite the deliberate usage of the minor 2nd.

I did, however like your composition very much and really liked the chords - good stuff dude


That is what phrygian is a minor scale with a b2
#5
Quote by dumbface12
That is what phrygian is a minor scale with a b2


your name fits your post very well. i'll just say there's far more to it than that. especially when classifying the key of a composition.

this is minor as all get-out. even though you don't have a D in it, that doesn't mean it's phrygian. also, keep in mind that C phrygian is not a key, so you're actually closer than you think when you ask what key the piece is in.

so yeah. straight up C minor. sounds good, though. i enjoyed it.
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#6
Quote by AeolianWolf
your name fits your post very well. i'll just say there's far more to it than that. especially when classifying the key of a composition.

this is minor as all get-out. even though you don't have a D in it, that doesn't mean it's phrygian. also, keep in mind that C phrygian is not a key, so you're actually closer than you think when you ask what key the piece is in.

so yeah. straight up C minor. sounds good, though. i enjoyed it.


a Gdim consists of G Bb and Db therefore this is phrygian MODE because of that Db which is the b2 which is the difference between Cminor and C phrygian that b2
#8
Quote by dumbface12
a Gdim consists of G Bb and Db therefore this is phrygian MODE because of that Db which is the b2 which is the difference between Cminor and C phrygian that b2


No.

It's just C minor with a minor second. Thats it, nothing more, nothing less. No modes.

This is why modes really restrict you, if you want to be modal then you are going to have to play over a single drone note or a one or two chord vamp.

If you use ACCIDENTALS at the right place and the right time then you can get the flavour of these scales without ever using the word "mode"
Last edited by mrbabo91 at Feb 10, 2012,
#9
Quote by mrbabo91
This is why modes really restrict you, if you want to be modal then you are going to be have to playing over a single drone note or a one or two chord vamp.

Again, post 262.
#10
TS, you can go ahead and think it's in the key of C phrygian. I just wanted to point out something that flew right over your head:

Quote by bouttimeijoined
My approach was to establish a tonal center on C, and construct melodies and harmonies strictly from the notes of the C phrygian scale.


If you want to perceive music on such black and white scalar terms, then that's how your music will sound.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#12
Quote by Xiaoxi
If you want to perceive music on such black and white scalar terms, then that's how your music will sound.


^^

here's where i find issue in the modal stuff: for all the trouble people argue to be able to use or interpret the existence of modes and how they can be used, at the end of the day you're restricting yourself by attempting to adhere to a mode rather than naturally creating something.

it's not worth all the headaches, cause at the end of the day there isn't gonna be somebody who gives you a medal to be able to playing in dorian or whatever successfully. people will always appreciate music that sounds organic and interesting over the textbook recreation of an archaic idea.

not to say i don't enjoy the piece, it was far from awful, but it was also far from being modal. at the end of the day, your ear seemed to give way to your brain.
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Last edited by Hail at Feb 10, 2012,
#13
Hey I liked this song! Sounds like the introduction to a police cop tv series.

Not modal for reasons above.
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#14
Quote by dumbface12
a Gdim consists of G Bb and Db therefore this is phrygian MODE because of that Db which is the b2 which is the difference between Cminor and C phrygian that b2


you have a lot to learn, kid.

i think the point has been made. let's nip this one in the bud before we have another epic poem on our hands.
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#15
Quote by AeolianWolf
i think the point has been made. let's nip this one in the bud before we have another epic poem on our hands.


Can you write one? At one point I wrote a longish rhyme about modes, but the TS deleted the thread and it was lost forever.
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#16
Quote by AlanHB
Can you write one? At one point I wrote a longish rhyme about modes, but the TS deleted the thread and it was lost forever.


there once was a man from nantucket

i'll get back to you when i finish the rest
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#17
ohhh now i see what you guys were saying this whole time i was talking about if you were to build a song using only the notes from C phrygian because that what i thought was this guys question thats a my bad on my part
#18
We'll do it together.

Quote by AeolianWolf
there once was a man from nantucket


Who saw a modes thread and said farket!
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#19
Quote by mdc
What I came in here to say http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...61&page=8&pp=40 Read posts 287 and 262... in that order.


So wait, if I remove the chords and keep only bass and lead guitar, am I getting closer to modal, in a Flying in a Blue Dream kind of way?

Quote by Hail
^^ here's where i find issue in the modal stuff: for all the trouble people argue to be able to use or interpret the existence of modes and how they can be used, at the end of the day you're restricting yourself by attempting to adhere to a mode rather than naturally creating something.

it's not worth all the headaches, cause at the end of the day there isn't gonna be somebody who gives you a medal to be able to playing in dorian or whatever successfully. people will always appreciate music that sounds organic and interesting over the textbook recreation of an archaic idea.

not to say i don't enjoy the piece, it was far from awful, but it was also far from being modal. at the end of the day, your ear seemed to give way to your brain.


The interesting thing is, by "restricting" myself, I ended up with something I never otherwise would have heard in my head. To develop new sound ideas it helps to have a dialogue, if you will, between brain and ear. This was the brains turn, long overdue in my case.

As another example, I'm not at the point right now where I will ever be writing a song by feel and come to a part and say, hey you know a whole tone scale groove would sound great here. Hopefully one day by experimenting with it from time to time I'll get to that point.

Quote by AlanHB
Hey I liked this song! Sounds like the introduction to a police cop tv series.


I'm going to take that as a compliment, and it means a lot coming from someone with whom the bulk of my interaction has been argument.

As for the key of this kind of song, I guess I'd have to describe it to jam buddies as, "it's in C minor but you'll want to use the F minor scale."


Quote by Xiaoxi
TS, you can go ahead and think it's in the key of C phrygian. I just wanted to point out something that flew right over your head:


If you want to perceive music on such black and white scalar terms, then that's how your music will sound.


I guess the fact that this was recorded as an exercise flew right over your head.
#20
Quote by bouttimeijoined

I guess the fact that this was recorded as an exercise flew right over your head.

No, that flew on par with the height of my head.

Whichever way you intended this, it makes little sense in terms of artistic judgement.

If you're claiming that this was a hypothetical situation, then you're implying that all strictly "modal" music made in this fashion is a derivative exercise. I agree.

If you're claiming that this is an isolated fragment that would be blended with other tonalities/modalities in a real situation, then you're conceding that it's counterproductive to have to switch modes/scales in your perception during the construction or analysis. I agree.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#21
Quote by bouttimeijoined
I'm going to take that as a compliment, and it means a lot coming from someone with whom the bulk of my interaction has been argument.


Hey no worries dude. I'm always willing to state whether I like or dislike a song regardless of any social stuff around it. While we're here does anyone else like Bruno Mars? (Runs away)
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#22
Quote by AlanHB
Hey no worries dude. I'm always willing to state whether I like or dislike a song regardless of any social stuff around it. While we're here does anyone else like Bruno Mars? (Runs away)


i enjoy a lot of pop music, actually

but i hate bruno mars with a passion. the guy can sing, and that's as far as i'm willing to go.
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#23
i liked odd future before bruno mars so it's kind of a conflict of interest

i think they're the closest i have gotten to pop really. i've just never been a 'happy' music kind of person - i like ambient, atmospheric kind of stuff lately, with little choice bits of various genres.
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#24
I think most of our would be modal composers missed their decade. The sixties were chock full with drone notes top of 2 chord vamps. Hell, sometimes not even two chords. Although, I can't for the life of me remember an example of that. Hm, I've probably forgotten a great deal more than that of those years. Whoops.

Quote by AeolianWolf
but i hate bruno mars with a passion. the guy can sing, and that's as far as i'm willing to go.
I've heard it said of Michael Bolton, "he never met a song he couldn't pulverize". Is Mars something along the same lines?
Last edited by Captaincranky at Feb 11, 2012,
#25
Quote by AeolianWolf
i enjoy a lot of pop music, actually

but i hate bruno mars with a passion. the guy can sing, and that's as far as i'm willing to go.


I wasn't sure at first, until I started playing his tunes live. I think there's some cool pop sensibility things going on there, of course it's extremely derivative, but seems to do it for me more than a lot of stuff on the top 40 right now. I think it just clicked with me hearing the Lazy Song, it's just so reliable, everyone likes it, it's just like 2 billion other songs and that's cool with me.

Oh and also the chord progression for Grenade. I like that. Especially in the second half of the chorus where it goes Bb - C- F - A7 - Dm - C - Bb - A ....... yep, I like it!

I recently heard Plan B's album too? Wow, that's some cool stuff there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQjh9H-ymK4
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#26
I like pop music, especially when a band like this comes along and puts the original artists to shame.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dirty+loops&oq=dirty+loops&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=60448l62115l0l62620l11l9l0l0l0l0l271l581l1.0.2l3l0

On the Justin Bieber cover, the bass solo is immense, and his voice at the very end is incredible. It's amazing anyway, but geeez.

Super tight band, they're getting a huge following as well.

The bass line on the Gaga track is deffo the grooviest so far, just very talented Jazz musicians. The Youtube comments are quite amusing too.

They also had a big thumbs up from Steve Lukather of all people.

Ridiculus substitutions, and Henrik Linder is a monster!
Last edited by mdc at Feb 11, 2012,
#28
Quote by mdc
I like pop music, especially when a band like this comes along and puts the original artists to shame.


i knew it was dirty loops without even opening it.
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#30
Quote by dumbface12
This would be in phrygian i believe except for if only strictly using notes from the C phrygian scale a Dbmaj7#11 would not work because that #11 i think would be an E but other than that everything works out

A true musician knows and does not think.
I know it's not phrygian because a b2 is an accidental.
When you say b2 it means the second degree has been flattened.
When something would be in phrygian (which it isn't) it wouldn't have a b2 it would have a 2.
#31
Quote by liampje
A true musician knows and does not think.
I know it's not phrygian because a b2 is an accidental.
When you say b2 it means the second degree has been flattened.
When something would be in phrygian (which it isn't) it wouldn't have a b2 it would have a 2.


lol what are you talking about liam
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#33
I know, it was pretty obvious weren't it lol. They are great though.
#35
Quote by Hail
lol what are you talking about liam

That I made the wrong quotes.
But when something is in C phrygian it wouldn't have a b2 it would have a 2 and that 2 is Db.
Dumbface said that phrygian is a C minor scale with a b2.
But if it was that it automatically wasn't phrygian, because you're then describing it as accidental.
I mostly don't read threads all the way till I respond.
#36
^^
I think what Liam means, is that something is either modal or tonal, and when something is modal, then you don't base scale degrees of the tonal system (makes sense to me).

So a b2 means a b2 according to the major scale, which (in the sense of harmony) is tonal.

Liam's logic would make sense if modal was a fully established concept to name it in an own roman numeral, where each intervals is a number of 1 - 7.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Feb 11, 2012,
#37
Quote by xxdarrenxx
^^
I think what Liam means, is that something is either modal or tonal, and when something is modal, then you don't base scale degrees of the tonal system (makes sense to me).

So a b2 means a b2 according to the major scale, which (in the sense of harmony) is tonal.

Liam's logic would make sense if modal was a fully established concept to name it in an own roman numeral, where each intervals is a number of 1 - 7.

Yes, That's what I meant :p.
I think it's ok if people say that the phrygian scale is the same as a minor scale but with a b2.
But if people say phrygian a b2 will imply the root.
#38
well the guy you were asking already said he didn't know what he was talking about, it just seemed unnecessary to bring in another issue of semantics
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#39
Quote by Hail
well the guy you were asking already said he didn't know what he was talking about, it just seemed unnecessary to bring in another issue of semantics

Like I said I don't read every comment before commenting.
I know it's pretty annoying sometimes.
#40
Quote by Hail
well the guy you were asking already said he didn't know what he was talking about, it just seemed unnecessary to bring in another issue of semantics


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but more than likely is wrong

It happens doesn't it?