#1
How are they formed? Are they just pre-made templates that you can move around the fretboard? I kind of just want to know how to make them.
#2
A
A#/Bb
B
C
C#/Db
D
D#/Eb
E
F
F#/Gb
G
G#/Ab
(A)

There are twelve notes. Scales are a selection of several of those notes, for example a major/minor scale is seven notes, a pentatonic scale is five notes. Patterns are, in a way, naturally occurring on the fretboard - the shapes are naturally formed on the fretboard, and we tend to choose/prefer shapes that are convenient to the fingers.

You can play the same scale in many ways (different shapes, three notes per string, all on one string, whatever) and it will still be the same scale. Because a scale is a sequence of notes, regardless of what sshape of form we find convenient.

TL;DR Learn the notes of the fretbaord, and learn how to construct scales/what scales actually are. And read these http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/general_music/the_crusade_part_i.html
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
Last edited by Hydra150 at Feb 10, 2012,
#3


scales are notes, not patterns. learn the notes. learn the intervals between the notes. learn why they sound good together.

start with your major scale.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#4
Quote by Hail


scales are notes, not patterns. learn the notes. learn the intervals between the notes. learn why they sound good together.

start with your major scale.


Well, how do you explain the difference between 2 different types of scales, say the Major and natural minor scales without using some kind of a pattern?


Quote by General Hosen
How are they formed? Are they just pre-made templates that you can move around the fretboard? I kind of just want to know how to make them.


A scale follows a certain formula/pattern of whole steps and half steps.

on your guitar a whole step will be 2 frets a way (as in 1st fret to 3rd fret)
and a half step will be 1 fret away (1st fret to 2nd fret)

Try this...

start on an open string, and follow this formula up the neck..

W W H W W W H

W = whole step H = half step

Following that formula/pattern will always give you a Major scale.

Once you understand that you should try learning the scale in 1 position. Since your using multiple strings it will obvoiusly be a new pattern on the guitar neck, but it's actually following the same pattern/formula of whole steps and half steps.

try comparing patttern 1 here... (root to root)Major Scale Patterns

with the Major scale formula on the 3rd string
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 10, 2012,
#5
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, how do you explain the difference between 2 different types of scales, say the Major and natural minor scales without using some kind of a pattern?


i meant visual patterns -> shapes

being able to tell the difference between major and minor intervals goes a lot deeper than them having different shapes and patterns, you know that
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
#6
Quote by Hail
i meant visual patterns -> shapes

being able to tell the difference between major and minor intervals goes a lot deeper than them having different shapes and patterns, you know that


It's all important fundamental stuff.

The formula of intervals that make up a scale IS a pattern.

And as far as visualizing patterns, thats just what happens when you play a physical instrument......
You see the patterns. That's your brain becoming familiar with the layout of your instrument.

and that goes beyond the guitar. Play a Major scale on the Saxophone. Notice a pattern? Now on a Xylophone.... pattern? Yep.

You can even see the patterns in notation.

If you think about it, a pattern is often the defining factor in what something is when you're talking about scales, chords, and other musical concepts.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 10, 2012,
#7
Quote by General Hosen
How are they formed? Are they just pre-made templates that you can move around the fretboard? I kind of just want to know how to make them.

For the purposes of this post I am dealing with the Major scale, specifically I will use the C Major scale as an example.

The shapes are formed by breaking the major scale down into smaller shapes across the fretboard.

You can form these anyway you want really that makes it manageable for you to learn to play the major scale across the entire fretboard.

To form your own you would take the major scale and find it on the fretboard.

The major scale is applying the step pattern (W W h W W W h) from a starting, or tonic, pitch. I'm hoping that you have this much down already. If not do a search for "constructing the major scale" or something along those lines.

What you need to know next is how to form different intervals across the guitar either on one string, or between two different strings.

So if we start with C as our starting pitch we would find C on the fretboard. Let's start on the eighth fret of the low E string. The major scale shows us we go up a whole step from there. We know the distance from one fret to the next on the guitar is a half tone or a semitone. moving up two frets would give us a whole tone or simply a tone. So the next step in our pattern would be on the same string two frets higher the 10th fret on the low E string.

  E |---|---|---|---|---|
  B |---|---|---|---|---|
  G |---|---|---|---|---|
  D |---|---|---|---|---|
  A |---|---|---|---|---|
  E |---|-C-|---|-D-|---|
fret  7    8    9   10   11


Then we need to go up another Whole step. Now moving up two frets on the same string is not the only way to move by a whole step. We can also do the same thing moving across strings.

If you know how to tune your guitar you know that the fifth fret of the E string is the same pitch as the open A string. So if we play the 10th fret on the E string it will be the same pitch as the 5th fret on the A string. But we are looking for a pitch that is one whole tone (two frets) above that pitch. So we go up two frets to the 7th fret on the A string.

Note that this pitch is a Whole tone (or major second) away from the D but it is a major third (two Whole tones) away from the tonic C.

  E |---|---|---|---|---|
  B |---|---|---|---|---|
  G |---|---|---|---|---|
  D |---|---|---|---|---|
  A |-E-|---|---|---|---|
  E |---|-C-|---|-D-|---|
fret  7    8    9   10   11


The next step in the major scale is up a half step from that major third to get a Perfect Fourth. We move up one semitone. The Perfect Fifth is one whole step above that...

  E |---|---|---|---|---|
  B |---|---|---|---|---|
  G |---|---|---|---|---|
  D |---|---|---|---|---|
  A |-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|
  E |---|-C-|---|-D-|---|
fret  7    8    9   10   11


We then go up a whole step to the major sixth (we will cross to the next string so that when we play through it we don't have to move our left hand up and down the neck we can keep it in one position. After the major sixth we go up another whole step to a major seventh and then a half step to the octave...

  E |---|---|---|---|---|
  B |---|---|---|---|---|
  G |---|---|---|---|---|
  D |-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|
  A |-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|
  E |---|-C-|---|-D-|---|
fret  7    8    9   10   11


There we have the major scale in one octave.

It is really good to familiarise yourself with the intervals between the strings. If we remove reference to the pitches and the frets we see the scale degrees...

  E |---|---|---|---|---|
  B |---|---|---|---|---|
  G |---|---|---|---|---|
  D |-6-|---|-7-|-8-|---|
  A |-3-|-4-|---|--5|---|
  E |---|-1-|---|-2-|---|


Lean each interval in relation to the tonic so that you quickly and easily know how to find a major third.

Note you can also do the major scale across a single string or across two strings or anyway you want. Any given root note will appear once on each string within a 12 fret range. Because the top and bottom E strings are both tuned to E the root note on those strings will always be in the same place while the rest are spread across the fretboard. But they are always in the same place IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER. So if you find a root note on the E string there will always be a root note two frets higher on the D string and 3 frets lower on the E string.

Also watch out fo the B string. It is tuned a half step differently when going from the G to the B string strings. so when going from the G to the B string you will have to compensate your intervals accordingly. (basically everything will get shifted a half step toward the body of the guiar.)

There are many systems used to break the major scale down across the fretboard. One of the most common is called the CAGED method. What this method does is starts with the tonic notes across the fretboard.

There are five different places across any 12 fret range of the fretboard where a specific tonic (or root note) can be found (counting the root notes fond on the high and low E strings as occuring on the same fret). As mentioned before the root notes are always in in the same place in relation to each other.

Sticking with the C major scale here are the C notes across the fretboard...


The CAGED method makes use of the relationships between any two of these root positions called "root shapes".



From each root shape we can build a tonic chord. The result of this is five C Major chords each overlapping the next and spread across the fretboard.



If we look hard at each of these major chord shapes we see that each one resembles (in its shape) one of five open chords. When played in the open position these chords are C major A major G major E major and D major - C A G E D. Which is where this method of learning the major scale gets its name.

So the first one here is the C major open chord...


Next is the C major chord which resembles the open A chord shape...


Next is the C major chord which resembles the open G chord shape...


Thenthe C major chord which resembles the open E chord shape...


Finally the C major chord shape which resembles the open D chord shape...


Note that after the D shape the C shape would come next - it all just repeats.

Note in the full fretboard layout how each of these shapes overlap with the one before and the one after.

When we fill out the full scale we end up with five full major scale shapes across the fretboard.


Each of the five scale shape spans four or five frets enabling you to play through the scale shape without having to move your hand up and down the fretboard.

It is important to note that each shape overlaps the shapes on either side of it quite significantly and that these major scale shapes ALWAYS occur in the same order across the fretboard.

The point of the CAGED system is as a learning aide. It is a way of breaking down and mentally organizing the major scale into sizeable chunks to help you learn the major scale across the fretboard. The ultimate goal is to be able to learn each of the five forms and how they interlock to the point where it becomes one big major scale pattern across the entire fretboard that you can move between seemlessly and easily. Be sure to take the time to learn the note names the intervals and the chord shapes as you go.

It is just one such learning aide. There are others and all of these systems were developed by someone. There is no right or wrong way to learn this stuff but you should learn it.

As mentioned earlier you can make up your own scale shapes. be sure to realize that you are not just learning a shape but the point of the shape is to help you learn the full major scale, intervals, note names, chord shapes etc.

Best of Luck.
Si
#8
Quote by GuitarMunky
and that goes beyond the guitar. Play a Major scale on the Saxophone. Notice a pattern? Now on a Xylophone.... pattern? Yep.


when i play trombone, i don't think 1 6 4 3 1 4 2 1 when playing a Bb major scale. i think of each individual note and understand their relation to the key.

You can even see the patterns in notation.

a scale is a musical pattern by definition. you know by now when i'm saying "don't follow patterns" i'm talking about using that pattern to define the scale. if it helps you visualize it, fine, but understand how it works before you assign a visual pattern to it.

but it should be understood by now i don't have faith in scales after learning the basic skills of an individual instrument and have some level of technical prowess where running up and down shapes won't benefit you.

e: 20t has a thorough explanation that's good for learning what's what. as i said, though, i wouldn't adhere to it after a certain point in the learning process when it becomes more of a hindrance than a tool.
Quote by Kevätuhri
Hail isn't too edgy for posts, posts are not edgy enough for Hail.


Quote by UseYourThumb
You win. I'm done here.
Last edited by Hail at Feb 11, 2012,
#9
I can't tell you how many times as a working musician scale patterns have helped me.
Sure, when improvising it is important to not rely too heavily on scale shapes, but for the rest of the music making world (composition aside) scales and arpeggios are pretty much your best friend.

When reading music you constantly encounter runs up and down scales, or up and down an arpeggio - when you see this on the page you can quickly work out what to play and continue reading ahead. No need to think of any individual notes, or what they function as, you just read and play the scale, then relish in the glory of having learnt your scales.

It also depends on what instrument you play. Strings generally rely on patterns and a good ear. Brass tends to think of the individual notes in the scale as the valve combinations make no discernible pattern, though once well practiced, the individual scales can be learnt via muscle memory and have a certain feel to them.
Woodwinds I believe are more of a mixture of the two, but having never played WW I don't know.
#10
Thank you for taking the time to write all that, 20Tigers. I appreciate it very much.

Thank you for all for the responses.
#11
Quote by General Hosen
How are they formed? Are they just pre-made templates that you can move around the fretboard? I kind of just want to know how to make them.


Patterns are a consequence of how the fretboard is laid out on the guitar. A scale is a series of pitches, usually whole and half steps intervals in a certain order, alphabetically.

Whatever those pitches are, their locations on the strings of the guitar depend upon how it is tuned.

That's how they are formed. When you have a set order of intervals, and you apply them to places that your fingers can conveniently access on the guitar ou have a set reliable "pattern".

Best,

Sean