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#1

I don't believe liberal, egalitarian, humanitarian types belong to underground black and death metal nor it to them. To me, the essences of the two are in conflict, especially between their respective hypermoral and postmoral aspects. - scourge, "Is metal inextricably political?"


Can we separate the political from the musical?

My answer: sounds are used in combinations that represent certain emotions and ideas. For metal, a specialized subset of all combinations is used to express a certain specific range of ideas. Obviously, that excludes some notions.

Therefore, it is certain that metal can have an ideological component.

Some bands seem to have no ideological component, like Meshuggah. Yet they invariably end up advocates for no political choice, which is a political choice, or drifting toward popular ideas.

Other bands hide their politics behind imagery, like Satanism or social Darwinism imagery (wolves, winter, battle).

For those reasons, it's not clear to me that the two can be separated. Certainly the punks and metalheads who formed these genres would agree.
#2
People put their feelings into their music.
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I've also noticed that as i've got older, I want to be further and further away from the front at a gig. Damn kids with their mushy pits and walls of doom.
#3
It's hard not to have politics in the music as shitty as the music industry is. Metal has always went though what I call the "cycle of Kings" starting in the UK who held the title as Kings of heavy metal for the longest period, not only heavy metal was coming out of the UK that was great it was also of other things. Then in 80s with the Thrash metal bands in the States. Later within the 90s and beyond where the music industry came down badly here the titles went off somewhere in Europe between the Euro, Folk metal, Black metal, and Power metal bands. This is more in part because it seems like it is always easy to build a foundation on which a band can expand in countries where there isn't really a few dominant artists or genres ruling the music charts as there is here in the states. I mean...if you had a metal band here in the US who hell is going to care about your music if everybody is talking about the shitty music festival that they call Warped tour for example.

What do you guys think?
#4
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#5
I'd say that metal has political implications, which is to say that you can make certain inferences, deductions and extrapolations from metal and apply that to framing your understanding of policy and government. At the same time, metal generally isn't didactic, and it is rarely concerned with explicit advocacy (like punk is).
#6
burzum r nazis

death in june r nazis

nd lamb of god r president!
Quote by Ultraussie
I want to try that while playing the opening riff to "Tempting Time".

0-0-0-13-0-0-0-0-13 or something like that alalalala but It;s so heavy and off time and awesome and you could not f**k anyone to it.


Quote by Ingested
burzum IS nazi. well, varg is.
#8
don't believe liberal, egalitarian, humanitarian types belong to underground black and death metal nor it to them. To me, the essences of the two are in conflict, especially between their respective hypermoral and postmoral aspects


Whoever said that has clearly never listened to Immolation
#9
Quote by unfathomable_bo
Whoever said that has clearly never listened to Immolation


They have, but the Butthole Coalition filters out anything that doesn't accommodate them.

Anyways, I think it's great when you have enough musical imagination to not be concerned with politics.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#10
Quote by unfathomable_bo
Whoever said that has clearly never listened to Immolation


Immolation is pretty classically "postmoral," no? They're certainly not advocates of egalitarianism, mercy or Christian charity. On the other hand, like pretty much all metal bands, they do worship power.
#11
From the looks of it these days, they're worshipping burgers.
Quote by Ultraussie
I want to try that while playing the opening riff to "Tempting Time".

0-0-0-13-0-0-0-0-13 or something like that alalalala but It;s so heavy and off time and awesome and you could not f**k anyone to it.


Quote by Ingested
burzum IS nazi. well, varg is.
#12
Quote by Stranglehold
From the looks of it these days, they're worshipping burgers.


Well, yeah. They also haven't released an outstanding album in quite a few years at this point. Excellence generally has a shelf life.
#13
this thread makes me want to

Cette nuit j'ai rêvé que je mâchais ses yeux
Après avoir crevé par accès de furie
Ta replète panse d'helminthes blancs nourrie,
Trop prompte à déféquer le fruit d'un vit sanieux.
#16
Quote by Stranglehold
burzum r nazis

burzum IS nazi. well, varg is.




╞══╬══╡



Ibanez RGR321EX w/ D-Activators
Peavey Bandit 112
#17
Yes, but how nazi exactly?
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UGH!
taste
kaygade
#18
Maybe we should aske him.
Quote by Ultraussie
I want to try that while playing the opening riff to "Tempting Time".

0-0-0-13-0-0-0-0-13 or something like that alalalala but It;s so heavy and off time and awesome and you could not f**k anyone to it.


Quote by Ingested
burzum IS nazi. well, varg is.
#22
Quote by Dylar
Immolation is pretty classically "postmoral," no? They're certainly not advocates of egalitarianism, mercy or Christian charity. On the other hand, like pretty much all metal bands, they do worship power.


Stop making a straw man of liberal views.

The lyrics of World Agony, A Glorious Epoch and numerous other Immo songs are fine examples of rationalist liberal thought. They are aggressive attacks against infantile, pseudo-evolutionary right wing posturing, and the collective malaise and misery that enforced individualist doctrines bring.

Being a liberal doesn't mean you love everyone and just want the world to be happy and warm and fuzzy. Stop listening to fox news.

I love anus.
#24
liberals are all communists and uneducated !!!!
Cette nuit j'ai rêvé que je mâchais ses yeux
Après avoir crevé par accès de furie
Ta replète panse d'helminthes blancs nourrie,
Trop prompte à déféquer le fruit d'un vit sanieux.
#25
I don't think it really matters. I just don't like it when bands of ANY genre use the political content of the song as an excuse for making bad music, which seems to happen quite a bit, though maybe less so in metal.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



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#26
Wait, as a band, can you just have a mish mash of ideals without identifying with one political group or another?

I mean, you could just quantify each bands ideals and then throw them left or right, but I think that's an oversimplification.
#28
Quote by unfathomable_bo
Stop making a straw man of liberal views.

The lyrics of World Agony, A Glorious Epoch and numerous other Immo songs are fine examples of rationalist liberal thought. They are aggressive attacks against infantile, pseudo-evolutionary right wing posturing, and the collective malaise and misery that enforced individualist doctrines bring.


Silly me. Here I was thinking you meant Immolation when they were still artistically relevant and creatively vital, but you mean Immolation after they started pandering to the mainstream to sell records. My bad.
#29
Oh, you're one of those

I see

Also, excellent usage of the No True Scotsman fallacy:

"No true scotsman would do such a thing"
"What about Hamish?"
"Aye, but no true Scotsman would do it."

By subjectively defining "underground" you have invented an argument that you can never lose.
Last edited by unfathomable_bo at Feb 12, 2012,
#30
yeah man, Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin were complete mainstream sellouts. Their only relevant work is their counter-cultural solo pieces they wrote in their late teens.
Cette nuit j'ai rêvé que je mâchais ses yeux
Après avoir crevé par accès de furie
Ta replète panse d'helminthes blancs nourrie,
Trop prompte à déféquer le fruit d'un vit sanieux.
#31
The more I think about this argument, the more it seems to fall apart.

Immo were arguably writing lefty imagery into their songs as far back as Unholy Cult (A Kingdom Divided much?).

Even going back the roots of death metal it doesn't hold too well; Early Sepultura was almost exclusively anti-war, anti-hate, anti-fascist etc etc.

Into the 90s, Obituary did an entire album based around anti-capitalist/anti-industry views. Hell, even Suffocation's Breeding the Spawn has songs on it that are anti-greed (Beginning of Sorrow) and anti-racialist (Ignorant Deprivation)

Then you have to think about the side of the genre that spawned grind, with cult classics like Terrorizer's World Downfall.

I know that you always have the "WELL THEY ARENT UNDERGROUND" card to play, but its worth thinking about.

Even the staunch apolitical anti-religious imagery that you find in most underground music arguably owes more to the extreme left than the extreme right.
#32
Quote by unfathomable_bo
Even going back the roots of death metal it doesn't hold too well; Early Sepultura was almost exclusively anti-war, anti-hate, anti-fascist etc etc.

I have to say I find Morbid Visions to be quite the opposite of this, particularly the lyrics to War.
#33
Quote by unfathomable_bo
Oh, you're one of those

I see

Also, excellent usage of the No True Scotsman fallacy:

"No true scotsman would do such a thing"
"What about Hamish?"
"Aye, but no true Scotsman would do it."

By subjectively defining "underground" you have invented an argument that you can never lose.


You don't seem to grasp the argument that is being advanced here, which isn't "All metal bands have the same political/ideological outlook," the argument being advanced is, "There are certain ideological assumptions implicitly encoded in the sound of metal, and, as a result, when bands try to use metal to express ideas that are the polar opposite of the genre's implicit orientation, the resulting output is artistically undermined by the contradiction between the creative ends sought and means utilized." Early Immolation matches its means and ends perfectly, and the albums are accordingly awesome. Later Immolation tried to pander to the instincts and conditioning of the Crowd, and any possibility of coherent artistic communication is lost in the disconnect between means and ends.
#34
Quote by unfathomable_bo
The more I think about this argument, the more it seems to fall apart.

Immo were arguably writing lefty imagery into their songs as far back as Unholy Cult (A Kingdom Divided much?).


If you squint and wish real hard, I guess you could impose a "liberal" meaning on the text of "A Kingdom Divided." Take it on its own terms, it's pretty much the classic death metal message: "Only death is real." It's not a moral statement, simply a detached observation about a phenomenon as old as time.

Even going back the roots of death metal it doesn't hold too well; Early Sepultura was almost exclusively anti-war, anti-hate, anti-fascist etc etc.


Have you even listened to Morbid Visions?

Into the 90s, Obituary did an entire album based around anti-capitalist/anti-industry views.


Yeah, and World Demise sucked out loud. It was also such an abject commercial failure that it very nearly bankrupted Roadrunner.

Hell, even Suffocation's Breeding the Spawn has songs on it that are anti-greed (Beginning of Sorrow)


Outside of libertarianism (i.e. fundamentalist liberalism), I can't really think of a single philosophy that extols the virtue of greed.

and anti-racialist (Ignorant Deprivation)


By far the weakest track on the album, but thanks again for illustrating my point for me, makes things far less tedious.

Then you have to think about the side of the genre that spawned grind, with cult classics like Terrorizer's World Downfall.


Grind wasn't spawned by death metal: the genres emerged independently at roughly the same time. Grind is a branch off the punk family tree, and shares its basic outlook with punk.

Even the staunch apolitical anti-religious imagery that you find in most underground music arguably owes more to the extreme left than the extreme right.


Left-liberal opposition to religion (really religious fundamentalism) is based A.) on the belief that religion is backward (which is to say, not progressive) and B.) on the notion that religion is unfair and/or anti-egalitarian. Metal generally objects to religion on the basis that it is A.) untrue or hypocritical and B.) that it spreads weakness, which are essentially "conservative" or "traditionalist" critiques.
Last edited by Dylar at Feb 12, 2012,
#35
Quote by Dylar

Yeah, and World Demise sucked out loud. It was also such an abject commercial failure that it very nearly bankrupted Roadrunner.


So commercial success is a sign that a band are watering down their material for greater acclaim (Immolation), and lack of commercial success is a sign that a band are watering down their material and fans are no longer interested (Obituary)?

You can't have both, choose one and stick to it.

Quote by Dylar
By far the weakest track on the album, but thanks again for illustrating my point for me, makes things far less tedious.


Again, your entire argument relies on No True Scotsmen: Trying to treat subjective matters objectively.

Any and every example anyone brings up will be easily batted away by:

"That sucked"
"That wasn't real death metal"
"That wasn't underground"

You have created the definition based upon the arguments you are putting forth, and because of that, there is no way anyone can prove you wrong.
#37
Quote by unfathomable_bo
So commercial success is a sign that a band are watering down their material for greater acclaim (Immolation), and lack of commercial success is a sign that a band are watering down their material and fans are no longer interested (Obituary)?


Immolation's early albums significantly outsold their more recent releases. In any even, you've missed the point. Underground metal bands struggle to successfully triangulate between pandering to the crowd and retaining their core audience: the contradictions just drive away the core audience without capturing the Crowd. That's what killed World Demise at the box office. The death metal fans only heard the sellout, while the mainstream only heard the death metal.

Again, your entire argument relies on No True Scotsmen: Trying to treat subjective matters objectively.


There are no "objective" matters. All experience and knowledge is subjective in nature, subject to individual standpoint and perception. That doesn't mean that everyone gets to be right, or that we can't analyze experience qualitatively as well as quantitatively.
#38
Quote by Dylar



Left-liberal opposition to religion (really religious fundamentalism) is based A.) on the belief that religion is backward (which is to say, not progressive) and B.) on the notion that religion is unfair and/or anti-egalitarian. Metal generally objects to religion on the basis that it is A.) untrue or hypocritical and B.) that it spreads weakness, which are essentially "conservative" or "traditionalist" critiques.


This is important. I also think it is important to point out that the capitalist right is'nt the only right out there, and Metal tends to oppose that worldview just as much as it does the liberal egalitarian mold. In my opinion the more common left and right parties that we hear about in the mainstream media are both symptoms of the same sickness, one simply feels entitled because they've played their cards cleverly and have gotten vast material rewards and social power from it, while the other wants those material rewards and social power themselves, and will use imaginary ideas like natural human rights,or the importance of the individual as a marketing scheme to get what they want.

Both are fundamentally opposed to what I think Black and Death metal at least are about, but at the same time I would imagine that viewpoints are quite variable on a personal level. For example, I know that John McEntee's personal criticism of religion is quite leftist,though I would not call Incantation a leftist band.


Oh and Moogle, I am offended you would post that hateful symbol here
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Last edited by Riffmast at Feb 12, 2012,
#39
Quote by Dylar



There are no "objective" matters. All experience and knowledge is subjective in nature, subject to individual standpoint and perception. That doesn't mean that everyone gets to be right, or that we can't analyze experience qualitatively as well as quantitatively.


Are you implying that if we could take a sizeable amount of bands, or releases that are generally deemed very good, they'd be a positive correlation with how conservative their ideals are?

And should bands/releases in more of a "grey area" just be excluded?
Last edited by technicolour at Feb 12, 2012,
#40
The real question is - why was this exact thread posted on multiple forums?
Quote by Ultraussie
I want to try that while playing the opening riff to "Tempting Time".

0-0-0-13-0-0-0-0-13 or something like that alalalala but It;s so heavy and off time and awesome and you could not f**k anyone to it.


Quote by Ingested
burzum IS nazi. well, varg is.
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