#1
Sup everyone!

I have been jamming to this d minor backing track lately (dm - Gm - C - Fsus2 - A# - Gm - C7 - A7)

Ok so my first question is, where do the Fsus2, C7 and A7 come from? I though the d minor chords were dm, Edim, F, Gm, Am, A# and C.. ( I don't know a lot about music theory)

Ok so over this track i have been using the d minor scale to do some solos. This is getting kinda boring though. Is it possible to switch scales in the solo? If yes, what scales would you recommend?

Thanks!
#2
I'd usually forget scales and just experiment with what sounds good
#3
Quote by Stereohead

Ok so my first question is, where do the Fsus2, C7 and A7 come from? I though the d minor chords were dm, Edim, F, Gm, Am, A# and C.. ( I don't know a lot about music theory)


The D minor scale consits of the notes D E F G A Bb C, an Fsus2 chord has F G C, these notes are in the scale so that's how it works, the scale isn't limited to just the basic root note triads.

As far as it comes for the soloing, the best way to do it is learn the notes on the fretboard and then learn which notes go best over which chords... it's time you start learning some music theory
#4
You can definitely use different scales!! Try using D minor pentatonic and D Dorian. Mixing those 2 together can really open up the doors with what you are playing. Do not worry about the sus or 7th chords at this moment.

D Dorian is: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D. It is the second mode of the C major scale. Many metal guitarists use Dorian. It is a minor scale, but it sounds more dark than sad.

Enjoy!
#5
^^^
What he said.

There's no A#, it's Bb... all the other chords are diatonic to D minor, i.e., they are all found in the D minor scale, except for the A7, which is the dominant chord, which comes from the harmonic minor (it has the C#, D's leading tone).

And yeah, rather than relying on scales, learn the fretboard, learn the chord tones, train your ears.
Quote by Xiaoxi
The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#6
Don't knock scales they can give structure and a great way to lead into chord changes, yes some do this just by ear and practice of feeling around but scales are a quick way to be cohesive with a backing track or other musicians. Although don't take them for gospel sometimes they wont work how they should and something that shouldnt work totally does.

Now what I believe your thinking of trying is model scales which is essentially sing the same scale but changing the root which makes it a mode of that scale certain modes work better for different styles there is a ton of stuff on the internet tutorials etc and I haven't explained it very well. Even wikipedia would be helpful. Also certain solos have certain turn around phrases most commonly in jazz which say alter from the scale of that key such as you mentioned chords which arent specifically in that key but are used similarly as passing notes are. Some players will move over to another scale entirely for a phrase or run to coincide with that chord and back into the original key or mode they were in, Mark Knoffler in Dire Straights does this tremendously as it sounds so fluid and effortless but I think he solos over the chords rather than the key which opens the box a little.

Just read up a little and start thinking of corresponding major scales to the blues pentatonic your using now and throw in some bits of that.

Your on the internet get out of this website and use it theres great stuff on here too but a whole lot of guff, some of the best stuff is theory based tutorial sites theres no reason why guitarists should be afraid, myself know some theory and will look it up to find a chord I need to finish a song etc and the rest of the time play what sounds right using both mindsets works well for me.
1972 Telecaster Custom (My Baby)
#7
Ok great!, i'll try something out with the dorian and pentatonic,

And i'll try to train my ears a little bit more :P

Thanks guys!
#8
You are only restricting yourself by thinking you have to use a scale over the progression.
#10
Quote by Stereohead
Sup everyone!

I have been jamming to this d minor backing track lately (dm - Gm - C - Fsus2 - A# - Gm - C7 - A7)

Ok so my first question is, where do the Fsus2, C7 and A7 come from?

Thanks!

The C7 can be seen a couple of different wayz. If you look at the interval in the bass between C7 and A7, it's a minor third.

Also this is a minor progression, so it's very common to treat the V as a Valt. In particular V7b9 (A7b9).

Now, the 7b9 chord chord is essentially the same as dim7 chord a semitone above, without the root. Bbdim7 is a rootless A7b9. Diminished seventh chords are symmetrical in nature, in that they can move around in minor 3rds and still be the same chord, function the same, or differently, depending on the composers use of it.

So you can move the V chord all over the guitar in minor 3rds. In this progression, they've just limited it to C7, but think of all the other possiblities.

So if you wanted to expand that out even more, you could throw Bbdim7 in between C7 and A7, it'll sound good.

The other, more simpler option, is that it's a VII.

As for the Fsus2, no problem, it doesn't contain a 3rd, and is still diatonic. If it did contain a 3rd, then that note would be A.
Last edited by mdc at Feb 12, 2012,
#11
Quote by Orryn
I'd usually forget scales and just experiment with what sounds good


Quote by griffRG7321
You are only restricting yourself by thinking you have to use a scale over the progression.


Quote by SilverSpurs616
Chord tones.


these guys have the right idea
modes are a social construct
#12
Quote by Stereohead
Ok so over this track i have been using the d minor scale to do some solos. This is getting kinda boring though. Is it possible to switch scales in the solo? If yes, what scales would you recommend?

Thanks!

On to your second question. The diatonic chords in D minor will naturally dictate what scale you'll be using at that time. CST.

The dominant V chord is the only time you'll want to use chord tone soloing.
Last edited by mdc at Feb 12, 2012,
#13
Quote by mdc
On to your second question. The diatonic chords in D minor will naturally dictate what scale you'll be using at that time. CST.

The dominant V chord is the only time you'll want to use chord tone soloing.


CST is essentially chord tones + deciding outside notes, just like any other situation
modes are a social construct
#14
Quote by Hail
CST is essentially chord tones + deciding outside notes, just like any other situation

By outside notes, do you mean the natural extensions of the chord? I.e Beyond the 7th. Or notes that are actually out of key? Cuz...
#15
Quote by mdc
By outside notes, do you mean the natural extensions of the chord? I.e Beyond the 7th. Or notes that are actually out of key? Cuz...


well, i mean, like the dorian scale

it's just a minor chord with a 2nd, 4th, and M6 being used as consonant tones. same effect as just using chord tones, at least the way i see when i play in the moment because i see all the other notes outside of chord tones as primarily ornamentation with each serving specific purposes based on the intervals on either side of them.

i've been looking at scales as added bits on top of chord tones lately, rather than chord tones being built from the scale. it can produce some interesting tidbits when stringing things together in a composition.
modes are a social construct
Last edited by Hail at Feb 12, 2012,
#16
Quote by Hail
well, i mean, like the dorian scale

it's just a minor chord with a 2nd, 4th, and M6 being used as consonant tones. same effect as just using chord tones, at least the way i see when i play in the moment because i see all the other notes outside of chord tones as primarily ornamentation with each serving specific purposes based on the intervals on either side of them.

Well the dorian chord scale will only work over Gm, cuz that's how the chord is functioning.

Quote by Hail
i've been looking at scales as added bits on top of chord tones lately, rather than chord tones being built from the scale. it can produce some interesting tidbits when stringing things together in a composition.

You could try superimposing upper structure triads, in addition to what you're already doing and it could create a similar effect. Triads are incredibly versatile.
#17
The problem is NOT something that will be solved by switching scales (although switching scales is completely acceptable, it's not the real solution to your problem).

The real problem is that you're playing PHYSICALLY not MUSICALLY. I will bet dollars to donuts that what you are doing amounts basically to just noodling in a physical shape, rather than thinking and using your brain.

So rather than rush to learn more scales, do the following exercise:

Listen to the backing track. Sing a lick. Then play it. Sing a new lick. Then play it.

Listen to the track once through the entire progression ... then sing a line all the way through ti. Then play that line all the way through it.

If this is hard (and it probably will be) then your problem is NOT scale knowledge but ear training. Download the (free!) functional ear trainer from Miles.Be and get a book on ear training (I like Keith Wyatt et al's "Ear Training for the Contemporary Musician."

WIth all those chord changes, it should be EASY to keep a single scale interesting over that backing track - because the role each note in the scale plays changes as as the backing chords change. But, of course, without ear training you're probably not really hearing the chord changes, you're only really hearing the tonal center that the progression gives you.

Ear training changes what you're doing from making music with your fingers to making music with your brain - and that's the only way to create truly great music. As an added benefit, you'll never again say, "this darn minor scale is just so boring."
#18
Quote by mdc
Well the dorian chord scale will only work over Gm, cuz that's how the chord is functioning.


what, i didn't mean in this context, i mean in general. the major scale is just a major 7 chord with 2, 4, and 6 picked out for you out of the 8 available notes outside of the chord tones.

the CST approach is just making less sense to me as time goes on. it's like clicking through presets rather than just making your own as you go.

also, hotspurjr hit the nail on the head
modes are a social construct
Last edited by Hail at Feb 12, 2012,
#19
Quote by mdc
By outside notes, do you mean the natural extensions of the chord? I.e Beyond the 7th. Or notes that are actually out of key? Cuz...


This is exactly why I have trouble understanding the 'just use chord tones' approach.

If you extend a minor seventh chord beyond the four notes that build a minor 7th chord you begin hitting the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.
Respectively these are the 2, 4 and 6 of the scale (as you know)
Therefore if you use the scale you are using the chord tones.
#20
Quote by Matt.Guitar
This is exactly why I have trouble understanding the 'just use chord tones' approach.

If you extend a minor seventh chord beyond the four notes that build a minor 7th chord you begin hitting the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.
Respectively these are the 2, 4 and 6 of the scale (as you know)
Therefore if you use the scale you are using the chord tones.

The reason I asked is cuz if the following quote meant notes out of key, then that would be incorrect use of CST.

Quote by Hail
CST is essentially chord tones + deciding outside notes, just like any other situation
#21
Quote by Matt.Guitar
This is exactly why I have trouble understanding the 'just use chord tones' approach.

If you extend a minor seventh chord beyond the four notes that build a minor 7th chord you begin hitting the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths.
Respectively these are the 2, 4 and 6 of the scale (as you know)
Therefore if you use the scale you are using the chord tones.


if you're playing over 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths, yes.

but when does this ever happen?

there's a reason all my examples say 'you have 3-4 chord tones and 8 other notes to listen to' because once you're playing extended chords, your options are inevitably lowered to almost only chord tones (which are basically the scale at that point)

i know what you guys are talking about, but when you're dealing with a 9th chord, for example, the 4 and 6 have no role assigned to them outside of ornamentation just like the remaining 7 notes. when you're dealing with a 7th chord, the 2, 4, and 6 have no role. etc.
modes are a social construct
Last edited by Hail at Feb 12, 2012,
#24
There is a ton of great advice. Honestly, when I play something I just go off the cuff. Never some technical mumbo jumbo....After years of practice, my fingers just do and go wherever.

I love the idea of singing the lick! I also use the analogy of the sax player...both singers and horn players need to breathe. Some times not playing over a beat or two sounds better!

Totally agree with training your ear!

Instead of using a flurry of notes, try using your emotion, phrasing, and let your body feel the song. Sounds funny, but you would be surprised as to what would come out.