#1
hey all,

i'm trying to grasp modes and i'm a little confused (probably not an original problem..)

here's something that i'm stuck on.

let's say i'm in the key of... G#


i want to use the lydian mode.

my understanding of modes is that the tonal centre is changed to a different tone in the scale.
G# has the following scale tones:

G# (tonic)
A# (2nd)
C (3rd)
C# (4th)
D# (5th)
F (6th)
G (7th)


so if i'm using the lydian mode... i'll start off on the fourth scale tone, which is:
C# (4th scale tone)


BUT

by definition, the lydian modes sharpens the fourth!

so what the ****?

does my tonal centre now become the sharpened fourth? (D?)

or do i start counting intervals with C# as my new tonic? (meaning that G is the new fourth and C# is the tonic....)
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Last edited by sysD at Feb 12, 2012,
#2
You appear to have went with the mixolydian mode. If you wanted to play G# Lydian, you would play a D# major scale centered on G#.

Also, I have to do this, sorry.

Quote by sysD


G# has the following scale tones:

G# (tonic)
A# (2nd)
B# (3rd)
C# (4th)
D# (5th)
E# (6th)
Fx (7th)


fixed.
Last edited by smartguyreviews at Feb 12, 2012,
#3
First things first, learn intervals. You've labelled the parent major scale aaallll wrong. For starters, it should be Ab.

Become familiar with the Circle of Fourths/Fifths.
#5
does it REALLY matter as long as the right notes are hit?
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#6
Quote by sysD
does it REALLY matter as long as the right notes are hit?

No.

smartguyreviews has the intervals right. But it's still not the most convenient.
#7
Quote by smartguyreviews
You appear to have went with the mixolydian mode. If you wanted to play G# Lydian, you would play a D# major scale centered on G#.

Also, I have to do this, sorry.


fixed.



i think i'm right though...
according to wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixolydian_mode#Modern_Mixolydian
mixolydian has a flattened seventh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_mode#Modern_Lydian_mode
lydian has a sharpened fourth.
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#8
They make the same sound, but B# and C are two totally different notes. Might want to learn a little basic theory, since odds are you know most of it, just dont that you know it. And it makes playing/understanding music a lot easier.
#9
1) Those notes are G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx (F double-sharp) G#. The key signature for said quasi-key is less than efficient, and it's best to rewrite the entire thing with enharmonic tones to:
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab <- That is a hell of a lot nicer and is a practical key. Ab can be read more easily than can the 'key of G#'.

2) Rearrange those notes from Db through to Db and examine the intervals between Db and the rest of the notes.

3) Don't touch modes for a year.
You might could use some double modals.
#11
Quote by sysD
i think i'm right though...
according to wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixolydian_mode#Modern_Mixolydian
mixolydian has a flattened seventh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_mode#Modern_Lydian_mode
lydian has a sharpened fourth.


Lets just talk in G to make this much easier for everyone.

A C major scale is spelled:

C D E F G A B

Starting on G, that would be:

G A B C D E F

That is a flatted 7th.

D:

D E F# G A B C#

G on D:

G A B C# D E F#

there is your augmented 4th. ergo, to get a G lydian, play a D major scale centered on G.

EDIT:
Quote by sysD
i didn't even know that B# was a thing lol

Then what would be G#'s 3rd?
Last edited by smartguyreviews at Feb 12, 2012,
#12
As everyone has said, it seems you need to take a step back and brush up on your theory, especially circle of 5ths/4ths. That'll lay the ground work for dealing with modes. You're mixing up a lot of terms and ideas because you don't know where they came from. And why would you pick G# as an example...
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#13
Quote by smartguyreviews
Lets just talk in G to make this much easier for everyone.

A C major scale is spelled:

C D E F G A B

Starting on G, that would be:

G A B C D E F

That is a flatted 7th.

D:

D E F# G A B C#

G on D:

G A B C# D E F#

there is your augmented 4th. ergo, to get a G lydian, play a D major scale centered on G.


thanks. this is a good one
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#14
i'm trying to find modes for keys that will utilize the most of my limited vocal range. i'm looking for a mode of a key that will use the most possible notes between B and E
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#15
Quote by smartguyreviews


Then what would be G#'s 3rd?


thought it would be a "C" lol... sounds like i need to crack open the old theory books again
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#16
Modes have nothing to do with which note you start on, your knowledge of modes is incredibly jumbled. Why not learn how to use accidentals instead.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#17
Quote by sysD
i didn't even know that B# was a thing lol


Seeing as that is the case, you need to seriously consider learning about enharmonic notes, the circle of fifths, key signatures, and accidentals. I also recommend at least learning to read music so that you see why what you posted originally is so outrageously impractical.

Allow me to rephrase that:

Learn it. Seriously.
You might could use some double modals.
#18
the only knowledge i have of modes is from random articles on the net and my piano teacher telling me which tones are flat/sharp for each mode
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#19
Quote by sysD
hey all,

i want to use the lydian mode.
my understanding of modes is that the tonal centre is changed to a different tone in the scale.
G# has the following scale tones:

G# (tonic)
A# (2nd)
C (3rd)
C# (4th)
D# (5th)
F (6th)
G (7th)

o)


First of all, please don't use G#, use Ab!
If you want to use Ab Lydian, play an Ab major scale with a #4:

Normal Ab = Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Degrees = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Ab Lydian = Ab Bb C Dnat Eb F G Ab
Degrees = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Your tonal centre is still Ab - the #4, which is better thought of as a #11 IMO, gives the 'Lydian' sound. It's like a slightly 'hipper' major scale.

If you meant you wanted the Lydian mode of Ab major (excuse me if my terminology offends) you take the fourth degree of Ab major, and play the notes of Ab major from this note:

Ab major: Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
4th degree = Db

Ab major starting from Db = Db Lydian = Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Db

Compare Db Lydian with Db Major scale:

Lydian: Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Db
Major: Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

Notice the 4th degree is sharpened in the Lydian?


From the way you started with G# instead of the more appropriate Ab, and from the way you spelt the G# major scale as well, I believe you have some basic theory groundwork that you need to learn before troubling yourself with Modes.

Learn the basics and you will be better equipped to delve into more complex subjects.
Last edited by Matt.Guitar at Feb 12, 2012,
#20
Thanks guys, looks like i got a bit ahead of myself.
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#21
Quote by sysD
the only knowledge i have of modes is from random articles on the net and my piano teacher telling me which tones are flat/sharp for each mode


Not to totally kill your hopes, but that knowledge collectively amounts to knowing fundamentally nothing about modes. Read and digest the above 6 posts pertaining to what you should look into.
You might could use some double modals.
#22
Quote by AETHERA
Not to totally kill your hopes, but that knowledge collectively amounts to knowing fundamentally nothing about modes. Read and digest the above 6 posts pertaining to what you should look into.


i know that i know nothing about modes (now). i've been humbled, haha.
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#23
modes and keys don't go together. that needs to be understood.

if you're playing in g# major...it's in the key of g# major. unless you do a drone/vamp you're not going to make it modal, and by the time it technically is in a mode it's usually not even worth the effort. there's a reason modal music isn't very common anymore - it's masturbatory to even make it when tonal music is the big deal

playing the c# lydian "scale" is a different thing all together. that's what you're trying to do - it's just c# major with an augmented 4th. it gives a slightly different feel compared to a perfect fourth. but it's important to realize what keys, and that there are no modes in keys.

just learn to sing better. take lessons. increase your range. i refuse to believe your natural limit is 6 semitones.
modes are a social construct
#24
Quote by Hail

just learn to sing better. take lessons. increase your range. i refuse to believe your natural limit is 6 semitones.



my range is from Ab3 to G#4
my falsetto is from A4 to D5


BUT

my tessitura (sweet spot) is from B3 to E4


i want to use those notes as much as possible
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#25
okay, i couldn't tell if you were like a frog or something.

realize, at any given time, you can use any of the 12 notes you like. use the chromatic scale and learn to use it to your advantage with leading tones or whatever. like alan said, learn accidentals backwards and forward.
modes are a social construct
#26
sysD, look at it like this: In your sweet spot, you have an octave + a perfect fourth of range. You therefore have 17 total chromatic tones to work with. If you can fit your lowest and highest notes for all of your singing parts into those 17 semitones, then you can use whatever appropriate collection of notes you need to.
You might could use some double modals.
#27
Quote by AETHERA
sysD, look at it like this: In your sweet spot, you have an octave + a perfect fourth of range. You therefore have 17 total chromatic tones to work with. If you can fit your lowest and highest notes for all of your singing parts into those 17 semitones, then you can use whatever appropriate collection of notes you need to.


i think you may have misread my post... or maybe my terms are wrong.

my sweet spot is from the B below middle C (B3?) to the E above middle C (E4?).


i WISH i had seventeen semitones to work with
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