#1
having learnt all the positions of the minor scale technically I know all the positions of the major scale just by changing the root note of the scale

having asked this question before , people replied its about the way the scale is played , but looking around the internet for the major scale positions there's alot of variation between the shapes of the scales , so surely by that logic everyone's major scale is going to have a different "feel" ?
#2
Not necessarily: For each sum grouping of notes that you put on the various strings, there will be minor discrepancies in the timbre associated with each. There are almost zero cases in which this matters, but those cases generally come down to answers to contextual questions regarding tempo, economy of play, and the like.

Edit: *FACEPALM* I answered a completely different question.
You might could use some double modals.
Last edited by AETHERA at Feb 12, 2012,
#4
Huh?

No. The major scale is the same notes. Therefore, it will have the same shape in the same place on the neck.

The "shape" of the scale is the same for the same position. It is the same notes. You are reading the charts you're finding on the internet wrong, or somebody is putting up bad charts.
#5
I think it affects, more or less, the "feel" or more properly, the way you play it. Because you have different notes to bend or pull off, dont know really how to explain it, but try this: Search youtube for "Backing track for guitar" or something like that, they usually tell you the key the track is in. Learn a position for it and improvise a bit, then change the position with the same key... you´ll notice the difference.

There's

NEVER

enough

GAIN


#6
hot spot yeah bad charts , there's various different position 2's ive found of the major scale

all i do now when i play major keys is use the minor postions ive learnt rooted in different places , but i was told by various people on here that playing the major scale that way is wrong and that i don't understand the musical theory behind it , im still hoping to be enlightened on this
#7
Quote by nosuchmanasmole
hot spot yeah bad charts , there's various different position 2's ive found of the major scale

all i do now when i play major keys is use the minor postions ive learnt rooted in different places , but i was told by various people on here that playing the major scale that way is wrong and that i don't understand the musical theory behind it , im still hoping to be enlightened on this


Essentially what people are talking about is relative majors and minors. Every major has a corresponding minor or relative minor, for example Dmajor has a relative minor of B, and so on. I think you would understand it better if you learned the 7 modes of the major scale to see how the major scale is related to the minor or aeolian mode ( this is the 6th mode of the major scale). Essentially just change the root note but play the sames notes, this is very valuable in helping you understand music theory, especially scale and modal theory.
#8
Quote by nosuchmanasmole
hot spot yeah bad charts , there's various different position 2's


Could you post links to the two different positions?

I think it's highly likely that you're misunderstanding what you're reading, so if you show me the links we can probably clarify it for you.
#9
#10
A scale is essential a series of notes. They appear all over the fretboard. Shapes and positions are purely organizational and visualization tools.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


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#11
Quote by ProgFripp74
Essentially what people are talking about is relative majors and minors. Every major has a corresponding minor or relative minor, for example Dmajor has a relative minor of B, and so on. I think you would understand it better if you learned the 7 modes of the major scale to see how the major scale is related to the minor or aeolian mode ( this is the 6th mode of the major scale). Essentially just change the root note but play the sames notes, this is very valuable in helping you understand music theory, especially scale and modal theory.


yeah i understand the relative theory , that's how i play my major scales essentially by playing its relative minor

modes are definitely next on my to learn list
#13
Quote by nosuchmanasmole


Okay. I understand the problem.

Notice how the 4th position in the first graphic you gave me is the same as the "second position" in the second link. The difference is that the first graphic extends one note fret BELOW the third-string root, whereas the second graphic extends one extra fret ABOVE the third-string root.

This is why things get tricky - there is no officially agreed upon "first position" "second position" etc. Most people I know talk about the shape with the root on the low-E string as the "first position" (not saying that's correct - there is no correct), but the google image graphic you gave lists it as the second.

But, everybody thinks of it differently. While I'm working to improve my ear so that I don't have to think in terms of box shapes at all, my default is to use a combination of what that google image result lists as the second, fifth, and occasionally a little bit of the first position - and then I use my knowledge of the fretboard to navigate the areas between them.

The key to navigating all this is to find your tonics.

You tonic is the red dots in the second image, and the filled-in black dots in the first image. So, for example, find the third-string tonic from the second link. Now look at the images in the google image until you find that same third-string tonic. Now notice how all the same notes have dots on them ... the difference being that to get all the same frets in the second link, you need to go back and forth between two positions in the first link.

These are the same notes ... just presented differently.
#14
I think your confused with terminology, but theres only one way you can even make a major scale, the major scale has one pattern:
TONE TONE SEMITONE TONE(In between) TONE TONE SEMITONE

If you follow that pattern by starting on Any note on the guitar, apply the formula. then whatever note you started on is __ Major , the scale you play will be the only possibly Major scale out there, Becuase there is only one way to play the major scale and thats Tone tone semitone tone in between tone tone semitone.

G Major

G A B C D E F# G
Construced Using T T ST T T T ST

C MAJOR

C D E F G A B C
Construced Using T T ST T T T ST

D MAJOR

D E F# G A B C# D
Construced Using T T ST T T T ST

A MAJOR
A B C# D E F# G# A
Construced Using T T ST T T T ST

See no matter what if you see a Letter with "MAJOR" next to it, it means it is a scale built of whatever the letter is using the formula Construced Using T T ST T T T ST.

Now there are many differrent places you play the G Major scale on the neck

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=3&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

You can play G Major from the Third fret of the E String to teh fifth fret of the D string, or play it from the 5th fret of the D string to the 3rd fret of the high e string.

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=5&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

or play it from the 5th fret of the d string to the 8th fret of the b string.

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=7&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

or from the 10th fret of the A string to the 8th fret of the B string.

What I just shjowed you is several differrent ways to play

G A B C D E F# G
it was always G to G, and it had to be to follow th the rules of a major scale.

If I wanted you to play the Dorian Mode, I would have you start and finish on the second note of the Major Scale, IN the case of G Major It would be A Dorian since A is always the second Note of G major, And the A Dorian Scale simply would be A B C D E F# G A,

If I wanted you to play the Phyrgian Mode, I Would have you find the 3rd note of whatever Major scale your playing, In the Case Of G Major, "B" is the third note in the scale, and therefore also know as B Phrygian.

The Notes of B phrygian are B C D E F# G A B

If I wanted to play the Lydian Mode, I WOuld play starting on the fourth note of the Major Scale. in the scale of G major, the fourth Note is C, so you get C Lydian.

The notes in C lydian are C D E F# G A B C

The nexy mode you might want to play is the mixolydian mode, which is at the fifth note of our Major scale, this time thats a D from Our G major scale, so we Get D Mixolydian.

D MIxolydian
D E F# G A B C D

Our next mode is an important one, it is the Aeolian Mode, or the "natural Minor Mode" this scale is the natural minor, and as You can see it lives inside the root Major at the 6th degree, (on the 6th note if the Major scale) The Minor scale lives right inside the Major scale and can be constructed very easily, if you want to know the natural minor of any Major scale just go up to the sixth degree, The Aeolian mode is always the natural minor.

E Aeloian AKA E Minor

E F# G A B C D E

The last mode we'll cover is the Locrian mode, which occurs on the 7th and final note of the scale, in G major, its an F#.

so the F# Locrian Mode is
F# G A B C D E F#

Some people say Ionian Lydian and Mixolydian are all Major scales because they are where the major triads live in the key, but this isnt the point of modes, to identify them as major or minor or whatever. ebcause each mode is differrent, thats why I say there is only one Major and one Minor mode, because all the modes are constructed Using differrent formulas, the foruma to make that E minor is a differrent tone semitone formula then the one you would use to create G Ionian(Major)., Or A Dorian.

The differrent feeling is in the differrent modes, because modes are constructed of differrent formulas, if you play The Major mode its generally Considered happy, If you play the Aeolian or minor scale, it will be percieved as sad, if you do say a lydian scale, it will probably be percieved kind of happy as well, but it will have a slightly differrent feeling to that then the ionian scale had, and the mixolydians feeling will be differrent to, cool to think you can tap into all these differrent way to convey feelings, just by knowing how to look at a major scale.
#15
To the original poster:

Please please please do not worry about modes at this point. Until you understand the major scale and how to apply it very well, modes are not helpful. Many great musicians never use them. They are not necessary.
#16
@123mac123: Regarding what you said towards the end of your post, if you play over the same progression two modes of the same scale, for example G ionian and A dorian, it would sound pretty much the same , since both modes consist of the same notes.
Whatever you play in G ionian can be played in A dorian and viceversa.

If you want to hear the difference between modes, you can hit the low E string, let it ring, and then improvise in E ionian, then in E dorian, E phrygian and so on. Each mode has a different feel, or taste, if you want.

And the lydian and mixolydian are major modes, since the third degree of the scale is a major third, as opposed to dorian, phrygian and aeolian which have a minor third.
#17
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=3&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

consider this one section on the neck, you can play every mode here, Play the G Major mode by sstarting on the 3rd fret of the E string and finishing on the 5th fret of the D string.

You can play A dorian by starting on the fifth fret of the E string and Finishing on the 2nd fret of the G string.

Can you figure out B Phrygian for that scale pattern?

Modes are just ranges within the scale.

What if someone didnt want to base a sing in a major key, what if they based it in say "A Dorian"?

if you dont understand modes then you dont understand the different keys, if your pllaying A dorian I said earlier the notes for this mode are

A B C D E F# G A

NOw I can say things like Major occurs at the seventh degree, or minor occurs at the 5th degree of the Dorian scale without being wrong, the relatonships are always consistent.


http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=3&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

this scale pattern .you can play A dorian from the fifth fret of the E string to the seventh fret of the D string. or you could play the B Phyrgian mode from the seventh fret of the E string to the fourth fret of the G String.

can you figure out the modes and where they lie iin these scale patterns. (listen to the modes, they should the same in every scale pattern, except maybe higher or lower depending on what octave)

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=7&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=9&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=12&scch=G&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1


@123mac123: Regarding what you said towards the end of your post, if you play over the same progression two modes of the same scale, for example G ionian and A dorian, it would sound pretty much the same , since both modes consist of the same notes.
Whatever you play in G ionian can be played in A dorian and viceversa.

123mac123:If your saying that if I play over a progresion with any two differrent modes of the same scale they will gebnerally have the same feel just because they have the same notes. Then How do Artists convey differrent feeling within one key?
if I play E Aeolian Over the same progression you play G Ionian over, then you will notice a distinct differrence in feeling, and yet they use the exact same notes.


If you want to hear the difference between modes, you can hit the low E string, let it ring, and then improvise in E ionian, then in E dorian, E phrygian and so on. Each mode has a different feel, or taste, if you want.

123mac123:So your saying to improvise in E Major, then in D major, then in C major, really your showing how to convey feeling hrough modulating from a key with 4 sharps, to two sharps, to no sharps, When Im talking about is just using the modes to convey feeling within one key which you can do


And the lydian and mixolydian are major modes, since the third degree of the scale is a major third, as opposed to dorian, phrygian and aeolian which have a minor third.

123mac123: yes and the locrian mode is diminished, And I didnt deny they were major modes, they are just lesser than the Root major, and the root Major is still the only one thats allowed to be called Major.
Last edited by 123mac123 at Feb 13, 2012,
#18
@123mac123: If you play G ionian over a G major chord it will sound different from playing E aeolian over an Em chord. But if you play both modes over the same chord, they will sound the same, because the notes are the same. That why "artists can convey different feeling within one key", they can solo with the same 7 notes for 60 seconds but when a chord changes, the feeling changes.

If you're playing over a G chord and you want a lydian feel, you use the G lydian mode, which has the same notes as D ionian, E dorian, F# phrygian and so forth...but now you can also play the notes of the G ionian scale and still get the same lydian feeling by playing them over a C chord, C being the 4th degree of the G major scale which corresponds to the lydian mode.

Like rockingamer2 said above me, the notes of a scale appear all over the fretboard, shapes and positions are just helping us to vizualise them much more easily.
#20
Quote by nosuchmanasmole

There's more than one way to play the major scale. You can play it on just one string, or you can play it on two strings. Or three strings. Or you can play it over two octaves on all the strings or over 4 octaves over all six strings across 12 frets.

People break the scale down into different "positions".

What one person calls position 2 someone else might call position 5. The thing to learn is where the root notes are, that is what makes the position. If the root notes. And remember that the same note can be played on the low E string and also on a string five frets back. This is how many people tune their guitars.

So in those two positions you posted look for the positions that have the root notes in the same locations. Then think about how you could play the same note on two different strings so where you play it is about what feels comfortable to you.

In the end though these shapes should all overlap to the point where you should be able to move seamlessly between them.

If you know all these shapes as you say you do then you should have at the same time learnt the note names and interval shapes inherent in those shapes. Those shapes are an aide to learning the scale across the fretboard. The idea is to get to know the fretboard in it's entirety and to feel comfortable moving up and down throughout those shapes smoothly and easily and to know the notes and scale degrees so you know all the different places you can find those notes and scale degrees.

I wrote a massive post on how the major scale can be formed and how the CAGED system works the other day...
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29117853&postcount=7

Have a read, it might help.
Si
#21
Quote by 123mac123


Modes are just ranges within the scale.

What if someone didnt want to base a sing in a major key, what if they based it in say "A Dorian"?

then you dont understand the different keys, if your pllaying A dorian I said earlier the notes for this mode are

A B C D E F# G A

NOw I can say things like Major occurs at the seventh degree, or minor occurs at the 5th degree of the Dorian scale without being wrong, the relatonships are always consistent.

Dude, the only person here that doesn't understand modes is you. Now please stop talking about them because regardless of the fact you're giving the poor threadstarter incorrect information this has nothing to do with his question.




Whatever you play in G ionian can be played in A dorian and viceversa.

123mac123:If your saying that if I play over a progresion with any two differrent modes of the same scale they will gebnerally have the same feel just because they have the same notes. Then How do Artists convey differrent feeling within one key?
if I play E Aeolian Over the same progression you play G Ionian over, then you will notice a distinct differrence in feeling, and yet they use the exact same notes.


123mac123:So your saying to improvise in E Major, then in D major, then in C major, really your showing how to convey feeling hrough modulating from a key with 4 sharps, to two sharps, to no sharps, When Im talking about is just using the modes to convey feeling within one key which you can do


no, just...no.

You really have no idea how utterly wrong all those statements are, do you? Minhea has it bang on the money.
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